* Origin of a citation's title as shown in the citations panel

[chsims1]

Hi,

a very new user here. I was looking at the source templates definitions to see how the templates are constructed, and I can see the various fields and '{ fieldname }' nomenclature for contents of fields. I created a new simple template, and added {fieldname}s to the footnote and short footnote fields (the only place I could see that might be used as the citation's title). However, on adding the source for an individual's fact, the citation panel showed a source with title "(no text)", rather than what I had been expecting from my entries in the footnotes.

Would anyone like to point out where I am going wrong?

Regards,

Ian

[tatewise]

Welcome to the FHUG Ian.

When you used Tools > Source Template Definitions... and created a definition you say you edited the Footnote Format and Short Footnote Format definitions.

Above them are the Record Title Format and Bibliography Format definitions that must also be edited.

The Record Title Format definition defines the Source Record Title as explained via the Help button.

image.png (68.19 KiB) Viewed 693 times

[chsims1]

Thanks Mike,

I am not trying to change the source record title (but I did set it as you suggested), I can see how that works. I want a source that I can add multiple citations to, and the citation details give the title in the citations panel. I use the essentials civil register index template for a similar purpose .... one source record for multiple citations, and the citations panel title reflects the citation details. I guess I'm missing something here, but I basically want a modified version of the Essentials 'civil register index' template.

I guess this might be an old chestnut here. I am a scientist by training, and presumably I'm a "source-lumper" to use the phrase that I see all over the User Group. My sources were journals/books etc. and any citation would add the reference to where within the source the relevant details would be found.

Regards,

Ian

[KFN]

Thanks Mike,

I am not trying to change the source record title (but I did set it as you suggested), I can see how that works. I want a source that I can add multiple citations to, and the citation details give the title in the citations panel. I use the essentials civil register index template for a similar purpose .... one source record for multiple citations, and the citations panel title reflects the citation details. I guess I'm missing something here, but I basically want a modified version of the Essentials 'civil register index' template.

I guess this might be an old chestnut here. I am a scientist by training, and presumably I'm a "source-lumper" to use the phrase that I see all over the User Group. My sources were journals/books etc. and any citation would add the reference to where within the source the relevant details would be found.

Regards,

Ian

Personally I don’t think you are a “lumper” if you want to have multiple citations within one source-record. Check out the article here:
https://www.fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/c ... -method-2/

I had the same issue with the Source_Record TITLE field when a brought over my very large GEDCOM over to FH7. I used the source_record Title field differently than the templates from FH7. All of my sources represent a whole book (the artifact) and my citations represent a single part pertaining to just the fact assertion.

I’m not at my laptop right now but I’ve had to build my own templates that support my way of building citations in a Method 1 “splitter” format!

[tatewise]

Ian, I imagine you want one Source Record and each associated Citation refers to a different source.
So, yes you are a lumper.

The Essentials Civil Registration Index yields a different Source Record Title depending on the {Region} and {Type}.
The Title shown in the Citation Window is the Source Record Title not a title of the Citation as shown below.
The Citation-specific Details need metafields with the Citation column ticked and can be included in the Footnote.

image.png (65.4 KiB) Viewed 646 times

[LornaCraig]

Ian, I imagine you want one Source Record and each associated Citation refers to a different source.
So, yes you are a lumper.

Mike, is that what you meant to say? If each citation refers to a different source that is not lumping, that’s splitting.
Perhaps you meant to say each citation refers to a different location within the source.

[KFN]

Let us be clear about the definition of Source vs. Citation

Source: This is the actual artifact, book, document, website, etc. from which we obtained our information.

Citation: This is a statement in which we identify what supplied the information for an assertion.

Too often we colloquially call a citation "the source", but it is not, very often an "artifact" can be cited multiple times because the "artifact" has asserted several facts, potentially on different pages or on different lines of the same page.

The page found here:
https://www.fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/c ... -method-2/

Actually miss-uses the term "sources" in its Lumper and Splitter "Number of Sources" definitions.

The number of Sources (artifacts) is the same for both lumpers and splitters, however, because of the lack of reusable citations the citation count is multiplied for method 1/splitters!

Sorry again if this is too pedantic!

[chsims1]

Thanks again for the replies, and I agree with Lorna's comment to Mike.

I think that I am not explaining myself well enough, so I will try again. I have said how I would like my sources and citations to work together (book analogy for the source, page number for the citation etc.).

The essentials civil registration index was the template that I was trying to emulate. So, my source record looks like this:

source record.png (36.58 KiB) Viewed 592 times

and an individual's 'properties' pane shows the citation to this source, with the details included in the citation:

citations1.png (20.51 KiB) Viewed 592 times

Now, trying to emulate this behaviour, we have a very bare looking source file:

source2.png (28.26 KiB) Viewed 592 times

but when we look again at the citation in the properties box, we see "(no text)" rather than useful information:

[chsims1]

ctations2.png (17.91 KiB) Viewed 591 times

If I click on the citation I get the pop up box showing all the info, and actually you can see the info in the citations panel if you expand the citations link:

citations3.png (25.89 KiB) Viewed 591 times

(all crammed in on the right hand side .... how do I alter the fields here to see this properly?)

My source template uses fields in the footnote exactly the same as the essentials civil register index one, so I don't see why I am getting the "(no text)" message. It works fine, but it's irritating not to be able to sort it.

Sorry for replying over two posts, but I think the number of images per post must be limited to 3.

Ian

[ColeValleyGirl]

The page found here:
https://www.fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/c ... -method-2/

Actually miss-uses the term "sources" in its Lumper and Splitter "Number of Sources" definitions.

The number of Sources (artifacts) is the same for both lumpers and splitters, however, because of the lack of reusable citations the citation count is multiplied for method 1/splitters!

Sorry again if this is too pedantic!

It now refers explicitly to "Number of Source records" rather than implicitly as before.

[tatewise]

OK, I should have suggested posting some screenshots earlier as it shortcircuits a long dialogue.

To adjust the window column widths first use the horizontal scroll bar so the Source Rec header is shown.
Then hover on the junction between Citation and Source Rec headers (purple below) and drag it left.
You can also adjust the size and position of the window and all those changes should be remembered by FH.

image.png (27.33 KiB) Viewed 579 times

Regarding the lack of Footnote, we need to see a screenshot of your Source Template Definition for the Electoral Register template to investigate all the Format definitions and the Field definitions.

We also need to investigate why none of the defined fields appear in the Citation Window.

My intuitive guess is that you have edited the Source Template Definition several times but have not synchronised the changes with the Source Template record held within your Project by using the Compare/Sync with Source Template Record... button.

Once that is resolved we neeed to discuss some of the Field Types you used (i.e. Text for Date & Name fields).
Also whether splitter or lumper is more appropriate in the context of Ancestral Sources data capture, etc, etc...

[chsims1]

Thanks for the help & pointers. I've learned a lot more behind the workings of FH for citations and sources ... the compare & sync was particularly useful. I've also found out to delete old versions of sources templates (view > other record lists > source templates), which was driving me mad, because their fields were persisting into new templates.

I couldn't see the difference between the Civil index template & my own, and in the end I have simply cloned it, and modified the fields to my requirements ... citation details now appear fine. I may well visit this template customisation again in the future, but there's plenty more basic stuff to get my head around first.

Now where was I, before I got side-tracked.....

Ian