* Plugin Export Gedcom File. Events with no date or place not importing to Ancestry trees. Probably Ancestry error

[jimlad68]

When I run the Plugin Export Gedcom File for Ancestry with default settings, some events "do not make it"
After some empirical testing I think I have tracked it down to those events (standard or custom) that have No DATE and No PLACe, but do have a Note:

If I upload the Gedcom direct from the project fh_data folder they work fine, but of course with the usual isuues including truncated Notes.

Now I know the issue I have a workaround, but might be worth others knowing about if there is no fix.

Having compared the examples below, I cannot see anything different and am wondering if it is Ancestry that is losing the events.

- Gedcom Extract FH fh_data folder:
1 EVEN
2 TYPE CensusJim
2 NOTE (census) from mmS-1891 age 24 living Bedford with husband Thomas, cotton self-acting minder. 1901 age 34, living Brideoake St, Leigh, with husband (cotton spinner)and niece (Gladys Shuttleworth, age 2, b Farnworth).
2 SOUR @S49@

0 @S49@ SOUR
1 TITL I_Mary Sayers
1 CHAN
2 DATE 4 FEB 2021
3 TIME 21:55:33

- Gedcom Extract of missing event from Plugin Export Gedcom File for Ancestry with default settings:
1 EVEN
2 TYPE CensusJim
2 SOUR @S1661@
3 PAGE Ω Note
3 DATA
4 TEXT (census) from mmS-1891 age 24 living Bedford with husband Thomas, cotton self-acting minder. 1901 age 34, living Brideoake St, Leigh, with husband (cotton spinner)and niece (Gladys Shuttleworth, age 2, b Farnworth).
2 SOUR @S49@

0 @S49@ SOUR
1 TITL I_Mary Sayers

0 @S1661@ SOUR
1 TITL Ω Note

- Gedcom Extract of events that work from Plugin Export Gedcom File for Ancestry with default settings:
1 DEAT
2 DATE EST 1950
2 PLAC England, , Greater Manchester, Wigan, Leigh
2 SOUR @S49@
2 SOUR @S1661@
3 PAGE Ω Note
3 DATA
4 TEXT Fact Address: Wigan, Leigh

And custom event
1 EVEN
2 TYPE _ToDo
2 SOUR @S1661@
3 PAGE Ω Note
3 DATA
4 TEXT [todo]check (info from mmS) Death date approximate. Stepchildren recall her living to very advanced age. More than one possible Ellen Hampson in 1871 and 1881 censuses, so without seeing M cert cannot be certain of parents.
2 SOUR @S49@

[tatewise]

Yes, I can reproduce similar symptoms where some facts without a Date or Place are omitted, even if some other fields such as Source Citations exist. It is somewhat inconsistent because sometimes I find they are included.
e.g. Your last example for custom event _ToDo has no Date or Place but you say is included.

I could modify the plugin to insert a 2 DATE (Unknown) date phrase line for such facts, which seems to work.
However, what useful information do such facts bring to the Ancestry tree?

[ColeValleyGirl]

However, what useful information do such facts bring to the Ancestry tree?

Facts without places or dates are valuable. In my case, I have religion facts that frequently have neither, and also biographical notes.

[jimlad68]

Your last example for custom event _ToDo has no Date or Place but you say is included.

My apologies I put in the wrong example!! I was trying to show it was both standard and custom events. Yes both have the same problem.

I could modify the plugin to insert a 2 DATE (Unknown) date phrase line for such facts, which seems to work.
However, what useful information do such facts bring to the Ancestry tree?

That sounds similar to what my "manual" workaround would be and should solve the problem for everyone.

So we must accept that it is another failing of Ancestry Trees! And as well as the recent international "Cloud" problems yet another reason to use an offline program like FH. I'm afraid Ancestry trees is a "means to an end" for me, DNA, cousin bate.

[Mark1834]

Curious - Ancestry does let you create new facts with just a note when entered directly into the website. I also created a new blank tree with just a single person in RM10 Essentials and uploaded that to a new Ancestry tree via TreeShare. Everything worked as expected, including empty facts with not even a note field, which Ancestry doesn't let you create manually.

I then created an FH tree with just a single person and a birth fact with note but no other details. Exported that via the plugin with default Ancestry settings, and the fact was excluded when uploaded as a new tree. Looking at the GEDCOM file in a bit more detail, I'm not sure I understand the format, as it appears to have created superfluous source records not in the original tree, and the birth note is listed under the source, not the individual. If I manually delete the sources and move the birth note to the person record birth fact as 2 NOTE Birth note, it imports correctly.

Have I made a mistake with the plugin settings by accepting the defaults, or are there features in the export that confuses Ancestry and causes it to discard the fact?

Code: Select all

0 HEAD
1 SOUR FAMILY-HISTORIAN
2 VERS 7.0.22
2 NAME Export Gedcom File Plugin Version 5.6
2 CORP Calico Pie Limited
1 GEDC
2 VERS 5.5
2 FORM LINEAGE-LINKED
1 CHAR UTF-8
0 @S2@ SOUR
1 TITL Ω File Root: _ROOT
1 TEXT INDI:	[I1]	John SMITH
0 @I1@ INDI
1 NAME John /Smith/
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 SOUR @S3@
3 PAGE Ω Note
3 DATA
4 TEXT Birth note
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Ω Whole Record Citation
2 SOUR @S2@
0 @S3@ SOUR
1 TITL Ω Note
0 TRLR

[jimlad68]

... Looking at the GEDCOM file in a bit more detail, I'm not sure I understand the format, as it appears to have created superfluous source records not in the original tree

Mark, I think the issue is that Ancestry trees does not convert some Gedcom features and FH features .:e.g. E.G. long notes are truncated, so the Plugin creates sources to contain a longer note. I suspect the plugin output is correct gedcom wise, but many programs do not cater correctly.

[KFN]

Technically, GEDCOM requires that a either a DATE or PLAC must be present for an event to be valid.

[Mark1834]

Presumably that depends on how different apps treat the event/attribute distinction, as attributes would frequently have neither date nor place?

[KFN]

Presumably that depends on how different apps treat the event/attribute distinction, as attributes would frequently have neither date nor place?

My reading and understanding of an attribute (or FACT tag) only requires an ATTRIBUTE _DESCRIPTOR to be valid. I would expect that an FH GEDCOM export would follow those rules. We don’t have any control over what others import!

An attribute can have a DATE or PLAC in some circumstances but it is not required to be valid.

A DATE could be an approximation i.e. “ABT 1801” or “BEF 1801” to satisfy the event requirement and be informative to the reader!

[tatewise]

As usual the Export Gedcom File plugin has to deal with moving targets as far as other products are concerned.
It seems that Ancestry Family Trees now support local Notes attached to Facts, whereas previously it did not and they had to be converted to Source Citations for the text to be retained.

In the plugin Extra Options tab, select Subsidiary Note %d NOTE: Keep Standard Tag ( Std ) and all local Notes should migrate to Ancestry correctly.

Theoretically, if a Fact has no Date or Place or other details it should by followed by Y as defined by the GEDCOM:
1 BIRT Y to indicate the Fact is to be retained. However, Ancestry Family Trees do not honour that feature.

So, the question is when a Fact has no Date, Place, or Note subsidiary fields what should be added by the plugin to force Ancestry Family Trees to retain the Fact?
The simplest answer is to add the tag 2 NOTE ? so a simple local Note is added.

[Mark1834]

Jim's explanation makes sense. By removing the NOTE from the fact, the plugin has created a bare fact with no fields, which Ancestry doesn't import. I couldn't see an option to suppress the moving of fact notes to source citation notes, so I wonder if that would be a better solution?

I never use the plugin in anger, so happy to defer to those who do, but my instinct is to keep the fact intact if possible (as Helen points out, a bare fact with just a note could be useful), rather than move the note, create a new source where none existed before, and create a new field that wasn't in the original data to stop it being discarded, when the original short note didn't even need moving in the first place!

Edit - Mike posted while I was composing this, so it's partly redundant, but I'll leave it in anyway...

[Mark1834]

To me, reading a fact note of ? suggests that the fact is uncertain, rather than definitely true but at unknown date and place. How about a NOTE along the lines of "Date and place not recorded."? It is both accurate and unambiguous.

[tatewise]

Mark, please see my explanation that preceeds your posting.

Unfortunately, Subsidiary Note %d NOTE: Keep Standard Tag ( Std ) setting works fine for Fact local Notes but then Individual record level local Notes using the 1 NOTE tag get discarded by Ancestry Family Trees.
So perhaps the plugin should create a dummy Ω Record Note fact to hold those local Notes?

Do others agree with Mark's suggestion for a dummy Fact local Note or have another suggestion?

[jimlad68]

The simplest answer is to add the tag 2 NOTE ? so a simple local Note is added.

For me, whatever works, as long as the info is there somewhere! Displaying source text in Ancestry is just 1 long string, however when you edit it, the line breaks can be seen!

I add a _Source_Inf custom event with date 111 and PLACe see "my Geneanet tree link" for more&better displayed info to all my individuals with a note:
Our FAMILY TREE is also here. (unless you are viewing this on Geneanet already!) "my Geneanet tree link" , it may ask you to register after a while (free and easy). I find this a better display for ALL the details of an individual, especially my "Text from Source" [] for quick HELP for geneanet trees see entry page or bottom of most pages: (The note of course ends up as a difficult to see Source).

[jimlad68]

I'm not sure it would do any good, but if it looks like Ancestry are updating their tree software occasionally we should complain to them of irregularities, especially things like note:s being truncated and sources being difficult to view.

A task for this week, I will not hold my breath, but might be cathartic!

I don't suppose anyone has a list when uploading a standard 5.5.1 Gedcom?

[tatewise]

Your mention of truncated Notes reminded to check, and I confirm that the Ancestry Family Trees Fact local Note text is restricted to 256 characters.
So what should the plugin do when faced with long local Note text like that?
That may have been the reason for using Source Citations to hold the Note text.
Anyway, should long Note text be converted to a Citation or terminate with elipsis ... ?

[KFN]

Theoretically, if a Fact has no Date or Place or other details it should by followed by Y as defined by the GEDCOM:
1 BIRT Y to indicate the Fact is to be retained. However, Ancestry Family Trees do not honour that feature.

Im trying to not be too pendantic but BIRT is an event, and should have a DATE or PLAC, but… in GEDCOM it allows for a “Y” to follow the tag so you are not required to have the DATE/PLAC. In GEDCOM v5.5.1 only BIRT,DEAT and CHR allow the “Y”, In GEDCOM v7.0 all events are allowed to have the “Y” and no DATE or PLAC. Attributes still require text to follow the tag!

[ColeValleyGirl]

Mike, we're all grateful to you for trying to stay on top of the changes in various destinations.

My own preference is not to put anything into a citation unless it's a citation. I can probably change my long biographical notes to be short notes with a supporting media file. Although various destinations will still throw that away (I Haven't tested).

[tatewise]

Ok Helen, you may be happy to adjust your Notes just to satisfy Ancestry, but how am I supposed to know what all the other users would prefer to do? I am trying to cater for as many scenarios as is reasonable without hindering too many people. The concept that the plugin supports is that exported data may not include every detail, so perhaps long Notes truncated with ellipsis is a tolerable solution. Alternatively, it needs another option to choose between truncated Notes with ellipsis ... or Source Citations with full text.
BTW: Ancestry Family Trees don't support linked Media files in GEDCOM uploads so that is not an option for you!

[ColeValleyGirl]

Ok Helen, you may be happy to adjust your Notes just to satisfy Ancestry, but how am I supposed to know what all the other users would prefer to do?

By asking, which is what you have done. Hopefully you'll get a range of opinions on which to base the solution. I accept you won't be able to please everyone.

[jimlad68]

Re how to proceed:
- I had always thought that all the extra "sources" created for Ancestry was to cater for things like truncated Notes and FH specific things like extra Place detail.

- I would have thought that the important thing was to get as much detail transferred as possible, without recourse to altering FH items like note length or adding a dummy DATE/PLACe.

But we have to work with what we have, just comes as a bit of a shock to realise that Ancestry has not imported a group of facts.

[Mark1834]

Indeed - Ancestry GEDCOM compliance is not that good in places, and their trees do have a bit of poor reputation at times for mangling material imported from other sources.

Agree that pleasing everybody is just not possible. My own view of exported data such as Ancestry is that it is purely for cousin bait and family reference, so I have prioritised highly accurate basic facts with little or no attention to more peripheral details or even sources and media (hence the RM/Ancestry Sync process). The details are shared with family members by other routes as appropriate to their level of interest.

Other people want online trees as a shop window to show off the full breadth of their data and fruits of their research, with every detail captured as accurately as possible with lots of media and sources. Who's to say which is the dominant or preferred audience?

[tatewise]

This is my current proposed solution where any of the Extra Options tab settings my be chosen in either mode:

For Ancestry Family Tree (+) Full Data mode retain both Extra Options tab default Citation Note (ANC) settings so that the full Note text is preserved in a citation.
A possible enhancement of that is for the plugin to only create the Citation when the Note text is greater than 256 characters but otherwise retain the Fact local Note text.

For Ancestry Family Tree (-) Brief Data mode set the Extra Options tab defaults as follows:
Record Note 1 NOTE: add a Move to Custom Fact Note option to create a custom fact with the record level Note text attached as a local Note.
Subsidiary Note %d NOTE: Keep Standard Tag to retain the Fact local Note text.
In both cases the Note text will be automatically truncated to 256 characters on import to Ancestry.
That will be documented in the Help & Advice but the plugin won't truncate the text and insert ellipsis.
Then if Ancestry relax the length of the Note text the plugin won't need to be changed again.

In cases where a Fact has no Date, Place, Note, or other field that ensures Ancestry imports the Fact, then a dummy local Note will be added saying 'Date and place not recorded'.

[jimlad68]

This is my current proposed solution where any of the Extra Options tab settings my be chosen in either mode:

All sounds good to me. If it is worth the effort I like the

A possible enhancement of that is for the plugin to only create the Citation when the Note text is greater than 256 characters but otherwise retain the Fact local Note text.

as the notes are better displayed as an Ancestry Note rather than a Citation.

In cases where a Fact has no Date, Place, Note, or other field that ensures Ancestry imports the Fact, then a dummy local Note will be added saying 'Date and place not recorded'.

would it be easier to just add a Date Phrase of 'Date and place not recorded' or even a simple "_" or similar to ensure it is added.

[tatewise]

I have updated the plugin along the lines discussed earlier and it is available to download via the link:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArcYtrv6ufQpo5sjSj4 ... g?e=55dFFV Version 5.8.2 Date 28 Aug 2024

However, I have just noticed that Research Notes linked to records, although converted to standard Notes, are not moved to a custom Record Note fact like standard Notes for Ancestry.

After any feedback from you guys, I may find time to fix that issue if you think it worthwhile.

BTW: It also fixes the issues with Fact Set files raised in Excport Gedcom plugin using GST GedSite option (23284)