* Handling identical source names

Questions about Generic and Templated Sources within FH and their associated Citations and Repositories
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Gary_G
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Handling identical source names

Post by Gary_G »

I sometimes have copies of the same document from different collections, but which are cited using the same template. This yields an identical source title. In practice; how do splitters typically handle identical source titles? A duplicate title could indicate two images from different collections or could indicate duplicate data-entry.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by t4ms »

I have created my own templates.
Here's an example the Record Title Format:
Record Title Format: {Website_collection}, {Repository}
For the enormous number of collections held by Ancestry and FamilySearch I have created a series of separate templates:
Record Title Format: {Website_collection}, Ancestry
Record Title Format: {Website_collection}, FamilySearch
I'm not sure what template you're using but you could always edit it to generate different Record Titles.
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Gary_G »

"t4ms";

Thank you. I thought that might be the approach people have taken.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Mark1834 »

If it happens frequently, it may indicate that the template construction is not optimised. If this were to occur in my system, such as two baptisms in the same parish with the same name at about the same time, I would edit one or both of the titles (NOT the underlying data) to add something distinctive.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

I don't have duplicate titles. I view images from different collection-repository combinations as different sources (since they are, technically; for example, different online providers have done their own imaging for e.g. censuses, with differing qualities).
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Gary_G »

Helen and Mark;

I'm trying to determine a more-or-less standard approach to forming titles that aren't likely to cause collisions.
I sometimes have two copies of an image, because some of the info in one is a bit more clear than on the other.
As "t4ms" notes, adding the collection and repository will generally solve the problem.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by KFN »

If you have two images of the same thing, maybe from different angles, of a large newspaper page a single scan can’t capture, back and front of a grave marker, before and after of a house or location. I add these in GEDCOM to the same Mutimedia_Record. Because I’m still very new to FH7 I have not tried to add them in the software, I load a new GEDCOM, but GEDCOM itself allows for multiple FILE tags. Therefore I would not need multiple sources, because they are the same source just different parts of it!

Update...
FH7 will not display the additional FILE tags, but does retain the structure including the title in the database.
Last edited by KFN on 11 Mar 2024 21:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by t4ms »

Gary_G wrote: 11 Mar 2024 12:44 Helen and Mark;

I'm trying to determine a more-or-less standard approach to forming titles that aren't likely to cause collisions.
I sometimes have two copies of an image, because some of the info in one is a bit more clear than on the other.
As "t4ms" notes, adding the collection and repository will generally solve the problem.
Hi Gary,

I think the longer you play around with citing within FH7 the better you get at nutting out how you want to cite your sources and what works for you.

As ColeValleyGirl has mentioned, I don't have identical record titles as I drill down to the repository and I have created my own collection of custom templates but I do have similar collection titles (Ancestry vs FamilySearch).

I have retained the Ancestry and FamilySearch collections in my source library as it's always nice to know where to find things but I guess you would call me a 'splitter' insofar as I usually cite individual records (UK census returns spring to mind).

Happy citing!
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by tatewise »

KFN wrote: 11 Mar 2024 19:04 FH7 will not display the additional FILE tags, but does retain the structure including the title in the database.
FH7 does display the additional FILE tags on the All tab of the Media record Property Box.
They can also be customised into the Main tab of the Property Box if you wish.

However, that second FILE tag is not well supported elsewhere in FH7, and because it is a GEDCOM 5.5.1 feature they will not export to products that only support GEDCOM 5.5 and may not even work for products that claim to support GEDCOM 5.5.1.

The more popular technique for handling such multiple images of one source is to create multiple Media records and link them all to the same Source record.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Gary_G »

t4ms wrote: 11 Mar 2024 20:45 Hi Gary,

I think the longer you play around with citing within FH7 the better you get at nutting out how you want to cite your sources and what works for you.

As ColeValleyGirl has mentioned, I don't have identical record titles as I drill down to the repository and I have created my own collection of custom templates but I do have similar collection titles (Ancestry vs FamilySearch).

I have retained the Ancestry and FamilySearch collections in my source library as it's always nice to know where to find things but I guess you would call me a 'splitter' insofar as I usually cite individual records (UK census returns spring to mind).

Happy citing!
"t4ms";

I've been playing with some newspaper article, newspaper BMD announcement and obit, and online obit citation templates. It's taken a while, but I've come up with citation and title formats that seem to work. The big issue has been that the Strathclyde system was designed to eliminate the need for anything but a "bibliographic" format. I had to separate the information into a more traditional Footnote, Short Footnote and Bibliography, then develop a title that was compatible. Now that I "think" I know in what direction I'm headed, I hope the remaining templates will be easier. I'll know for sure after tweaking my existing first pass templates for the census and church registers.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by t4ms »

Gary_G wrote: 11 Mar 2024 22:26 "t4ms";
I've been playing with some newspaper article, newspaper BMD announcement and obit, and online obit citation templates. It's taken a while, but I've come up with citation and title formats that seem to work. The big issue has been that the Strathclyde system was designed to eliminate the need for anything but a "bibliographic" format. I had to separate the information into a more traditional Footnote, Short Footnote and Bibliography, then develop a title that was compatible. Now that I "think" I know in what direction I'm headed, I hope the remaining templates will be easier. I'll know for sure after tweaking my existing first pass templates for the census and church registers.
Ah. I'm unfamiliar with Strathclyde as the mere mention of obliterating my beloved footnotes would see me head for the hills... :ugeek: :lol:

Now I know you're citing newspaper articles/family notices etc I use the following as a record title format (I have separate templates for family notices and articles):
Family notices:
<{Principal} and {Principal_2}'s> {Event} notice, {Newspaper}, published {Issue_Date}
which generates
Alice May Brown's death notice, The Advertiser, published 19 May 1952
One media record of the notice
This allows for multiple death notices for Alice from several newspapers published on the same or different dates.
Articles:
<{Author},><"{Title_of_article}">, {Newspaper}, published {Issue_Date}
"Accident at Moonta Mines", Yorke's Peninsula Advertiser, published 6 July 1900
(author usually blank for older articles)
All media records for article (I work with Trove which often requires several images for larger articles and/or image and PDF)

As for census returns
{Year} {Region} census, Ancestry = 1841 England census, Ancestry
which I 'split' to:
{Dept_Series_Piece_Book}, Folio {Folio}; {Census_ID}, {Parish} = HO 107/1171/11, Folio 29; 1841 Census, Colerne, Wiltshire, England
One media record (the folio page)

Church records
{Website_collection}, Ancestry = Somerset, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1531-1812, Ancestry
which I 'split' to:
{Register_credit_line}; {Parish}; {Parish_register_title}
D/P/stogs/2/1/1; Stogursey, Somerset, England; Marriages, burials and baptisms. 1598-1630
Several media records (all pages in parish register)

My system is 'mine' and it suits me but if you can get some ideas from it, have at it! If not, cheerfully ignore this entire post! :D

Tamara (unabashed citation nerd)
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by KFN »

Tatewise said:
FH7 does display the additional FILE tags on the All tab of the Media record Property Box.
I see that it displays the path to the image but not the image itself in the ALL Tags section.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Gary_G »

t4ms wrote: 11 Mar 2024 23:25 Ah. I'm unfamiliar with Strathclyde as the mere mention of obliterating my beloved footnotes would see me head for the hills... :ugeek: :lol:
Tamara;

I, too, like having proper footnotes. That is why I'm spending the time to create my own variant that brings them back again. Thank you for the examples.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by t4ms »

Gary_G wrote: 12 Mar 2024 00:41 Tamara;

I, too, like having proper footnotes. That is why I'm spending the time to create my own variant that brings them back again. Thank you for the examples.
My pleasure!

I must admit that I find crafting the perfect source template for my own personal use is as satisfying as the research itself :)
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by fhtess65 »

I too have a system all my own, one I've been told on a Facebook forum is "wrong", but I am happy with it and that's all that matters'

Teresa - also a citation nerd
t4ms wrote: 11 Mar 2024 23:25
My system is 'mine' and it suits me but if you can get some ideas from it, have at it! If not, cheerfully ignore this entire post! :D

Tamara (unabashed citation nerd)
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Re: Handling identical source names

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fhtess65 wrote: 12 Mar 2024 02:04 I too have a system all my own, one I've been told on a Facebook forum is "wrong", but I am happy with it and that's all that matters'

Teresa - also a citation nerd
Ugh!

They obviously never met my quirky but adorable Medieval History professor who had his own citation system and insisted you use it*... or the bazillion journal editors who have their own style guides... etc. etc.

If it's consistent and anyone can find the source by using it that's all that counts.

Citation nerds unite!

*I designed my own EndNote templates to accommodate this which made creating FH7 source templates a breeze in comparison.
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Gary_G »

One thing that is driving at least some of my effort into developing templates is the need to also have the titles be unique and the bibliography sort in a meaningful way. I find that most published citation systems seem to miss that aspect. I do know, from experience with the EE-style website, that the first footnote is about all that gets any attention at all.
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Re: Handling identical source names

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Gary_G wrote: 12 Mar 2024 11:53 bibliography sort in a meaningful way.
Shoot me down in flames but I don't see the need for a (FH7 constructed) bibliography. I'm preparing my research for submission to my local genealogical society and I have no intention of including one. I'm crafting publications in FH7 and each individual's page has extensive footnotes. I am including a page on where to locate source material to guide a researcher instead. It is a manually prepared list not dissimilar to an annotated bibliography.

Family history research differs from historical research where a bibliography is best practice and source material is not predominantly a collection of online databases and digital collections where citations are what matter (and not the website collection or the online location they came from which will change over time).

For example, as a history graduate, I would cite precisely where I found an item in a newspaper but the bibliography would only contain the title of the newspaper. Having a long list of newspaper titles in a bibliography is meaningless in family history research but having extensive footnotes pinpointing where I found relevant items necessary. Instead, I will be including information on where to find digital images of newspapers or holdings of physical newspapers in my 'annotated bibliography'.

Tamara
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: Handling identical source names

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Tamara;

I don't believe that I ever said that a Bibliography is a requirement. In fact; many people don't use them. However; I do keep a bibliography, just as a convenient list of places where I found certain types of information. It's easier than wading through hundreds of footnotes. My bibliographic entries are quite brief; sometimes just one line. eg. type of info, collection name, repository name and URL.
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Re: Handling identical source names

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Gary_G wrote: 12 Mar 2024 20:24 Tamara;

I don't believe that I ever said that a Bibliography is a requirement. In fact; many people don't use them. However; I do keep a bibliography, just as a convenient list of places where I found certain types of information. It's easier than wading through hundreds of footnotes. My bibliographic entries are quite brief; sometimes just one line. eg. type of info, collection name, repository name and URL.
Ah, we're at cross-purposes. I assumed you were assembling something for 'publication'. I'm not sure why you'd be wading through hundreds of footnotes when you can be using the filters to find a source? Or, I'm assuming, this is why you need to edit your record titles?

To assist in my research of a particular person I keep research tables instead with embedded URLs and I use the notes feature to link sources to places.

An example:
I have a new person, Joe Bloggs. He gets his own research table (using autotext). I then discover Joe Bloggs was baptised in Whoville. I open up Whoville's property box and I can click on embedded URLs to locate source material.

Anyhoo, how we do stuff works for us and as long as it works for us, that's the main thing!
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Re: Handling identical source names

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Tamara;

No problem. We all attack things a bit differently. Perhaps I'll switch to a method like yours once I'm up and running and know my way around FH7 a bit better.

My citations are starting to come together, as I continue to develop my templates and play with how I want things to be sorted and/or grouped. I openly admit that I've been cherry-picking some good ideas from Tersesa, who is well on her way to a stable citation style.

Example from my latest template:

Title
England & Wales Birth Index [Coll.: "GRO Online Indexes", Site: HM Passport Office]

Footnote
England & Wales Birth Index entry for Frederick William Wells, registered 1866, male, mother's maiden surname: Martin, GRO ref.: "1866 S Quarter in TUNBRIDGE Volume 02A Page 504"; Fmt.: Database entry, Coll.: "GRO Online Indexes", Site: HM Passport Office (https://www.gro.gov.uk), Acc.: 12 Mar 2024.

Short Footnote
England & Wales Birth Index entry for Frederick William Wells, reg. 1866, male, m.m.s/n.: Martin, GRO ref.: "1866 S Quarter in TUNBRIDGE Volume 02A Page 504". [Coll.: "GRO Online Indexes", Site: HM Passport Office].

Bibliography
Index: Birth: England & Wales: "GRO Online Indexes". HM Passport Office. https://www.gro.gov.uk.
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Re: Handling identical source names

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Gary_G wrote: 12 Mar 2024 23:30 Tamara;

No problem. We all attack things a bit differently. Perhaps I'll switch to a method like yours once I'm up and running and know my way around FH7 a bit better.

My citations are starting to come together, as I continue to develop my templates and play with how I want things to be sorted and/or grouped. I openly admit that I've been cherry-picking some good ideas from Tersesa, who is well on her way to a stable citation style.
My biggest piece of advice (from someone who is *still* sifting through her 20k+ profiles from the FH6 to FH7 upgrade) is to take one type of source and citation, play around with source templates, get something that works, and lock it in. Otherwise you waste hours fixing all of your citations (um, learned from experience!!).

And, it's whatever makes sense to you as that will be intuitive. I'm a big fan of cherry picking. Why invent the wheel when you don't have to!

To give you an idea how I create my own custom citations, I go for the 'less is more' approach. I find EE templates a wall of annoying text. You'll be able to see the years of Chicago/History referencing going on within my templates:

Title
Free UK Genealogy: FreeBMD
Footnote
Birth registration of George Charles Thickpenny, Q3 1871, district of Thetford, vol. 4b, p. 370, "FreeBMD", Free UK Genealogy, https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl, accessed 22 May 2023.
Short Footnote
FreeBMD, Free UK Genealogy

If I have ordered the certificate (digital/physical) I create a separate source with the repository being GRO.

Just curious: I picked up on you citing GRO Online Indexes (and the link) and thought I'd missed something. But the link takes me to ordering a certificate. By searching the FAQ I discovered you access the index at the point of ordering which requires a login etc. etc.

In my beyond humble opinion, I tend to cite databases that are publicly available and easy to access in the first instance, hence FreeBMD. Something to consider?

Cheerio,
Tamara
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Mark1834 »

I think there is one question that is seldom asked when talking about preferred footnote format - what is their target audience? To illustrate using this birth registration example, the instances recorded in my project have come from various places over the years:
  • The original bound index volumes in the London public search room (now long-closed).
  • Microfilm copies viewed in public libraries.
  • Viewing an image of the printed index downloaded from the original 1837online website (the precursor to FMP).
  • FreeBMD (and whether you check the linked image or take a bold double-keyed entry on trust may split that into two separate sources - FreeBMD database and image of original index viewed via FreeBMD).
  • A listing on Ancestry or similar that would have been derived from viewing the original index.
  • A direct electronic copy of the index via Ancestry or similar.
  • A search of the GRO online indexes.
There is no doubt in my mind that these are all different sources from a strict academic perspective, as they all have their own individual sources of potential error. However, my sources and their associated footnotes are not intended for academic publication. I start from the assumption that the only people likely to be interested in the actual footnote details (as opposed to a general admiration of their thoroughness) are myself or somebody who already has a basic understanding of genealogical sources, so knows where to find the indexes for themselves.

I therefore treat the GRO Birth Registration Index as one source. If there are discrepancies between sources of that source, such as "missing from GRO online index but confirmed by viewing copy of original index", I add a citation note. For me, the advantages of being able to query and tabulate all my index citations as a single entity (checking consistency, highlighting missing entries, etc) far outweighs the loss of academic rigour in not separating out detailed sources.

That leads to an even simpler footnote from my custom source template:

England and Wales Birth Registration Index: Q3 1867, Wisbech, vol 3b page 590
Arthur Thomas Draper (Cupper)

Here, the date, Registration District and vol/page, are three fields in my template, and the name (and mother's maiden name in parentheses) are the Text From Source. It has all the key details of who, what, where and when, and fully enables either myself or somebody else with a basic knowledge of genealogy sources to review the data if required.

Like Tamara, I create separate sources for the actual certificate. My policy is to require certificates for all BMD events for all direct ancestors, where the consequences of a misidentification could be very serious.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by Gary_G »

I appreciate everyone's suggestions. Thank you.

Tamara;
I tend to refer to the login page when the site requires one. If I don't, I'll usually get sent there anyway. I try to use free sites and the GRO Index part is free, although one can order certificates from the site; hence the login. I do use FreeBMD, since the GRO doesn't have some of the later years and doesn't have marriages.

I find that many large pay sites seem to collect info that I can get for free, if I look around a bit. That practice by pay sites really bugs me. So; I always try to find a free site, when possible. That's why my biblio listing is so valuable to me. It helps when I'm looking for something.

I'm taking things slowly and trying out ideas on a few templates. I know there will always be a few that I'll need to develop along the way, but I would like to get the key ones nailed down before jumping into data-entry with both feet. FH7 has forced me to effectively re-do my data-entry, which is a lot of work. The FH7 import is useful, but I can't leverage the real strengths of FH7, if I just import and continue.

Mark;
I never use index data for the main branches of my tree, which could cause me to go off in the wrong direction. I do use that sort of data to fill in some of the non-direct-line children associated in a family, as sometimes it helps me to see gaps, overlaps and inconsistencies in the family as a whole.

Indices are one source type that I tend to always lump, since I don't need to see hundred of entries. If I need to order a certificate, because my consistency checks have highlighted an issue, the data is easy enough to access. Because they are kept totally separate, it should be possible to exclude them from reports, when required.
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Re: Handling identical source names

Post by fhtess65 »

Pre-1911 I refer to the GRO Online Indexes because of the additional information, such as MMN for Births, and Age at Death for Deaths.
t4ms wrote: 13 Mar 2024 00:41 <SNIP>
Just curious: I picked up on you citing GRO Online Indexes (and the link) and thought I'd missed something. But the link takes me to ordering a certificate. By searching the FAQ I discovered you access the index at the point of ordering which requires a login etc. etc.

In my beyond humble opinion, I tend to cite databases that are publicly available and easy to access in the first instance, hence FreeBMD. Something to consider?
<SNIP>
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