* Birth and Birth Registration

[Chris-Hollis]

I am new user to FH7 after migrating from RM9.
How do people deal with the Birth Registration instead of Birth?
In RM I created a Fact for Birth Registration which had the Source from the GRO. The Registration District is normally different from the Birth Place and the dates are different i.e. Quarter date instead of Birthday.
I could create a source for the Registration and attach it to Birth.
Also how would a Birth Registration Fact be handled by the GEDCOM file, which appears to be a lot more important to FH.

This also applies to Marriage and Death Registrations.

Any advice appreciated.
TIA
Chris

[ColeValleyGirl]

I (and many other people) would create a single source for GRO registrations, and cite that Source for the Birth Fact (putting the registration details in 'where within Source'). The registration doesn't seem significant enough to warrant it's own custom Fact (which is what a Birth Registration Fact would appear as in the GEDCOM file).

[Mark1834]

If you imported your RM9 file into FH, your custom registration fact and any associated sources and source templates should have come across intact. I agree with Helen that recording Registration as a separate fact is not a common way of working, but there is nothing stopping you from continuing with how you worked in RM if that is what you prefer.

Your custom facts and sources will be stored in the GEDCOM file without any problems, as GEDCOM allows for such customisations (although they don't usually transfer intact between apps unless it is by a direct import).

[Gowermick]

Further to Helen’s reply. To add a Birth Regiration fact to an individual, with its corresponding dates, would mean actually purchasing the Birth certificate to see when the birth was registered.

I would suggest that most users don’t go that far, (except for close ancestors) and simply use the GRO reference to source the various facts associated with the Birth.

In my case, I use a simple generic source (e.g. GRO B 1945 Q2 Southwark 1d 246), and use this as a source to confirm Name, Date and Place of birth, and a note which states mother Maiden name.

To be honest, when the birth was registered is a bit of an irrelevance ( to me, that is )

EDIT By birth registration I mean the date the birth was actually registered with the registrar, rather than the actual birth day, which are two entirely different things

[Mark1834]

It can be useful background though. Couple of examples - I have an uncle with multiple dates of birth recorded from different sources. The date quoted on the certificate was the later of those dates, but were earlier ones in fact correct, and the certificate was "massaged" to avoid a fine for late registration? I've also got a number of registrations from rural Ireland (where original registers over a hundred years old can be viewed for free) where the registration was a very long time after the reputed date.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Further to Helen’s reply. To add a Birth Regiration fact to an individual, with its corresponding dates, would mean actually purchasing the Birth certificate to see when the birth was registered.

No, it doesn't. The index entry tell you that it was registered so could if you wished create the Registration Fact with e.g. a quarter date.

[tatewise]

Your custom facts and sources will be stored in the GEDCOM file without any problems, as GEDCOM allows for such customisations (although they don't usually transfer intact between apps unless it is by a direct import).

Since GEDCOM allows for custom facts, they do usually transfer quite well via GEDCOM to other apps, especially if you use the Export Gedcom File plugin that caters for differences in handling custom attributes and events.
Perhaps Mark is thinking of the Tools > Fact Types... definitions of such as the Sentence Templates, which I agree usually get excluded unless it is by direct transfer.

[Mark1834]

No, I'm thinking exactly what I said. Chris's custom facts and sources will be stored just fine in the FH GEDCOM, which is the point he was asking for reassurance on. If you can enter it via the keyboard, FH has a way of saving it in its own GEDCOM file.

However, neither standard nor custom facts can be relied on to be transferred intact between apps via GEDCOM due to the wide range of dialects in use.

We could debate the degree of corruption by fact type and export method, but I'd rather not...

[Chris-Hollis]

Thank you to all of you that have replied so far.

Most of my family come from Oxfordshire, and Oxford itself has two Districts - Oxford and Headington.
The Birth Place is not necessarily the same as the Reg. District. e.g. People were born in Middle or Steeple Barton were registered in Woodstock. and the Birth Date and Registered dates are different. This was the main reason I separated the 2.

I think the way forward, as you suggested, is create another Source/Citation for Birth Registration and attach it to the Birth Fact. It just awkward if you know the Reg. District but not the Birth Place as in the above example the 2 places are 10 miles apart but 2 distinct places.

I expect there will be a lot more questions as I get into FH7. It appears to have a steep learning curve, but when data is in there the data mining and reporting capabilities are far superior to RM9.

Once again Thanks all so far.

BW
Chris

[KFN]

Forgive my ignorance, what is the difference between a “birth registration” and other types of birth sources? A birth source can be (but is not limited to) certificates, church registries, bible entries, census entries, letters, government documents.

The birth “fact” is designed to expose information about when and/or where an individual is born. I’m trying to wrap my mind around how people use various “facts” for a proposal!

Thanks

[ColeValleyGirl]

Forgive my ignorance, what is the difference between a “birth registration” and other types of birth sources?

It depends on whether you believe the registration event is worth recording in its own right. If you do then the registration detail supports a registration fact as well as birth fact. Otherwise it supports the birth fact. In either case it is just another source.

[AdrianBruce]

Forgive my ignorance, what is the difference between a “birth registration” and other types of birth sources? A birth source can be (but is not limited to) certificates, church registries, bible entries, census entries, letters, government documents.

The birth “fact” is designed to expose information about when and/or where an individual is born. I’m trying to wrap my mind around how people use various “facts” for a proposal!

Thanks

As Helen says - it all depends on whether you think the registration event is worth recording in its own right. To give an example - in this case, relating to marriage. Under all normal circumstances, I have only the Marriage Event, which is supported by various different types of sources, potentially including sources relating to marriage registration (which isn't a separate event in England & Wales - yet - but can be separate elsewhere). The specific example where I broke out of that practice was a couple who married in San Francisco in 1903. When the 1906 earthquake and fire struck, all official records of their marriage would have vanished. Being a careful soul, the husband organised a registration (strictly, re-registration, of course) of the marriage in 1909. Since that was such an interesting case, I used a Custom Event of Marriage Registration, citing, of course, the (re-)registration document. My usual voluminous notes appeared in the Notes for this Marriage Registration event.

That's the only instance that I can remember using a separate Registration event - I did it just because it was interesting.

[KFN]

Adrian,

In the case were a couple has a second wedding, such as:

1 Civil Wedding
2 Church Wedding

Or

1 Church Wedding
2 Renew Vows

I just create two MARR events with MARR.TYPE = Civil and Religious or Religious and Renewed. No custom events.

[victor]

When I have a birth certificate I don't bother with the registration. There are two forms of registraions. The fgirst is the local register office nand the second the GRO.
The local registration officer has an exact copy of the certificate, which is why it is only in black and white. The GRO certificate is extracts from the local registration office, which is why they are coloured.
Not all certificates reached the GRO. The marriages of my mother's two sisters didn't. I guessed where they were married and got a copy of the certiificates from the local history centre, which keeps the parish records.
I have not been able to find some certificates at the GRO but found them using UKBMD webnsite
Victor

[RS3100]

Not quite. Neither of them are copies of certificates. The certificates they provide to order are copies of the register entries. Local registration offices usually have the original registers, and can provide certificates which often, but not always, contain an image of the original entry. I have LRO certificates that are in colour, but that just means that the reproduction has been printed on coloured paper. Some LROs insist on sending out typed copies (transcripts) of the original register entries, but some will make copies of the original register entry if specifically asked, whereas others will provide a copy of the original entry by default. I find it always as well to request a copy of the original entry at the time of placing an order, just to be on the safe side and to confirm what I want.

The GRO has transcribed copies of the original register entries. In the days before photocopiers etc. these were compiled quarterly by the local registrar, laboriously copied by hand onto blank register pages and bundled off to the GRO. So the GRO copies do not contain the original signatures of the informant or registrar etc. which may be important if that is what you are seeking. They may also contain errors.

I recently obtained a certificated copy of the original register entry for one of my Gx4 grandfathers, from Tower Hamlets LRO. I had been trying to find his death for some time, and had ended up speculatively buying copies of six different death registrations from GRO, trying to identify the correct record. The sixth was a bit of a punt, as he was shown in the GRO index as 9 years older than my ancestor would have been at the date of death, but from other information on the certificate it was obvious that I had found the right man. So I ordered another copy from Tower Hamlets, requesting a copy of the original register entry. Sure enough, his age was recorded in the original register as 70 years, but that had been transcribed as 79 years on the copy sent to the GRO.

GRO copies are also in black and white if you order a PDF image rather than a printed certificate. The PDF image is simply a reproduction of the transcribed register entry, not a certificate as such, but otherwise contains the same information that would be reproduced on the certificate, albeit uncertified and less costly. But PDF copies aren't available for marriage entries of course.

[AdrianBruce]

... In the case where a couple has a second wedding, ...
I just create two MARR events with MARR.TYPE = Civil and Religious or Religious and Renewed. No custom events.

Interesting. I could probably make more use of TYPE for GEDCOM standard events / attributes. A quick survey of my data suggests that I only use TYPE for the Probate event to distinguish between the case of simple probate (i.e. there is a will), no will (aka Letters of Administration aka Admon) and Admon "with will attached" (there is a will but all executors are dead or any survivors have declined to serve) - these are the cases under the law in England & Wales.

So far as I remember I don't have any cases of civil v. religious ceremonies, nor renewed vows.

As an aside, the 1909 case in San Francisco was, it seems to me, not appropriate for a MARR with a TYPE, because it wasn't a marriage event (i.e. no-one was making any vows), it was just documenting a previous event (again...).