* [Wish List Request 595] Default Surname when adding children & parents

[davidf]

Default Surname when adding children & parents

Requirement
The overall requirement is to be able to offer a wider range of "default surname" on "Add Child" and on "Add a parent". It has two features:

1. Currently the default behaviour is controlled by a check box: "Insert father's surname when creating children". The requirement is that this should also control the adding of a default surname when creating a father or mother.
2. Currently the default behaviour is controlled by a check box: "Insert father's surname when creating children". The requirement is to enable a wider range of options.

Benefits
This offers more functionality to existing users (in patrilineal families) and to a wider range of potential users (in non-patrilineal families) and from a marketing point of view makes the product less Anglo-centric.

Notes
The current option is controlled by a checkbox

Current Preferences Control

Surname when creating children - current.png (9.13 KiB) Viewed 2160 times

A. Basic Changes - to enable others

1. If the current behaviour is changed to a pull-down list, the current options would be:

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment

It is then relatively easy to contemplate further options

2. If this behaviour can be set at family level we can then potentially handle the situation when an individual marries into a family with different surnaming practices. So for instance whilst most of a project follows the Patrilineal convention descendents of that couple might follow a different convention (so we would use option "None" under current choices). This could be implemented by a line on the Property Box / Focus Window between the parents and the children that contains the pull-down list detailed in (1) above - but applying to just that family. The choice could be held in a FH specific system variable held on the Family Record.

3. Bi-directional. If Patrilineal is specified, when we create a father, the father's surname should default to that of his first child.

For other possible options (see below) it may also be possible to define other "back in time" defaults for parents subsequently entered.

B. Options then available

We can then consider other options. For instance:

1. Repeat. A useful extra option could be:

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment
• Repeat - for subsequent children use the same surname as the previous child.

This gives a half-way house for more complicated naming conventions (for instance double barrelling - you manually edit the surname of the first child and subsequent children take the same surname by default)

2. Matrilineal

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment
• Matrilineal - insert mother's surname
• Repeat - for subsequent children use the same surname as the previous child.

An unreferenced comment in the Wikipedia article on Spanish Naming practises says:

Patrilineal surname transmission was not always the norm in Spanish-speaking societies. Prior to the mid-eighteenth century,[citation needed] when the current paternal-maternal surname combination norm was adopted, Hispanophone societies often practised matrilineal surname transmission, giving children the maternal surname and ...

The program logic is very similar to the existing patrilineal option.

If Bi-directional is implemented, selecting Matrilineal means when we create a mother, the mother's surname defaults to that of her first child.

3. Handling Illegitimacy in Patrilineal Cultures

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment
• Patrilineal+ - but use mother's surname if father is unknown
• Matrilineal - insert mother's surname
• Repeat - for subsequent children use the same surname as the previous child.

This would handle the situation that arises in Patrilineal cultures when children are born illegitimately and are registered under their mother's surname.

[ADC65]

I sometimes get the scenario where the surname of someone I'm adding will not have the same surname as Family Historian is suggesting for me. This can be for a number of reasons, some of which are captured by your options above, some of which are not. I simply type the name I want over the suggested surname.

I believe the suggested surname feature is just a typing aid, a bit like predictive text, and I think it would be unreasonable for software like FH to consistently and accurately guess the name of someone you are entering, and it would be foolhardy to rely on it to do so. I also believe the FH control interface is already far too cluttered and complicated for an average user and adding more to it could be seen as more overload.

I do understand your motivation to make things in FH better, but I believe there are far more urgent things on the wish list that need addressing by CP before looking at this. That said, those are probably items that are important to me

[davidf]

I believe there are far more urgent things on the wish list that need addressing by CP before looking at this.

I understand you saying this - and I suspect that with the variety of existing users we will get this view applied to a wide variety of wishes. What prospective users might want is another question!

However I believe that such wish lists items should be created - unless the overwhelming view is that an idea would have a negative effect. Perhaps even then they should go on the wish list with comments on the negative effects, so if CP are planning something in this area they can see what existing users don't want!

CP will be planning Version 8 - with a spill over of ideas into the Version 9?! I suspect that for a new version they need it to be far more than just a lot of tweaks and bug fixes - it is hard to charge an upgrade fee for those. Therefore they will be looking at "areas to improve" which will be attractive to new users and I see "name handling" as an area that they may look at because it could widen the appeal of FH to a new audience (outside those that almost universally have "Given Names /Patriname/") as well as making it "a bit better" for existing users.

I am actually in favour of a level of "predictive text" as it helps prevent errors such as transposition errors when entering surnames. Predicting the surname of children in a patrilineal world is useful - but why not also when working in the opposite direction "up the paternal tree".

These may well be small changes, but are easy enough to wind into a general overhaul of name handling?

[ADC65]

I didn't mean to appear negative, I apologise if I did. I'd say I feel more neutral about it. It's great that we have people like yourself that can logically and clearly express the advantages of changes, and have the patience to do so.

[davidf]

3. Bi-directional. If Patrilineal is specified, when we create a father, the father's surname should default to that of his first child.

Seeing Jane's presentation to RUG it looks as if V7 already has bi-directionality implemented (about 19 minutes in). Is this the case or was Jane being fast with a "cut and paste"? And if so is it defaulting to the surname of the first child or some other child (first in the GEDCOM record for that family)?

(I'm assuming I have not missed a setting for this in V6!)

[Jane]

Adding Fathers surname was on the wish list and was marked as complete
https://www.fhug.org.uk/wishlist/wldisp ... lwlref=337
and is covered in the FH7 help.
https://www.family-historian.co.uk/help ... altab.html

[davidf]

Updated to reflect that V7 introduced "default surname when adding a father"

Default Surname when adding children & parents

Requirement
The overall requirement is to be able to offer a wider range of "default surname" on "Add Child" and on "Add a parent". It has two features:

1. Currently the default behaviour is controlled by a check box: "Insert father's surname when creating children". The requirement is that this should also control the adding of a default surname when creating a father or mother (V7 already does this when creating father's in patrilineal situations).
2. Currently the default behaviour is controlled by a check box: "Insert father's surname when creating children". The requirement is to enable a wider range of options.

Benefits
This offers more functionality to existing users (in patrilineal families) and to a wider range of potential users (in non-patrilineal families or families where the surname does not follow patrilineal practice) and from a marketing point of view makes the product less Anglo-centric.

Notes
The current option is controlled by a checkbox

Current Control of surnaming

A. Basic Changes - to enable others

1. If the current behaviour is changed to a pull-down list, the current options would be:

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment

It is then relatively easy to contemplate further options (see section B below)

2. If this behaviour can be set at family level we can then potentially handle the situation when an individual marries into a family with different surnaming practices. So for instance whilst most of a project follows the Patrilineal convention descendents of that couple might follow a different convention (so we would have to use option "None" under current choices). This could be implemented by a control on the Property Box / Focus Window between the parents and the children that contains the pull-down list detailed in (1) above - but applying to just that couple and its descendants. The choice could be held in a FH specific system variable ("_SURNAMING"?) held on the Family Record. This choice would be "inherited" by subsequent new families (up or down the generations).

3. Bi-directional. In V7 If Patrilineal is specified, when we create a father, the father's surname should default to that of his first child. For other possible options (see below) it may also be possible to define other "back in time" defaults for parents subsequently entered.

B. Options then available

We can then consider other options. For instance:

1. Repeat. A useful first step extra option could be:

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment
• Repeat - for subsequent children use the same surname as the previous child (by DoB if known, by order in the Family Record if not).

This gives a half-way house for more complicated naming conventions (for instance double barrelling - you manually edit the surname of the first child and subsequent children take the same surname by default)

2. Matrilineal
Add another option

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment
• Matrilineal - insert mother's surname (instead of the father's)
• Repeat - for subsequent children use the same surname as the previous child.

An unreferenced comment in the Wikipedia article on Spanish Naming practises says:

Patrilineal surname transmission was not always the norm in Spanish-speaking societies. Prior to the mid-eighteenth century,[citation needed] when the current paternal-maternal surname combination norm was adopted, Hispanophone societies often practised matrilineal surname transmission, giving children the maternal surname and ...

The programming logic is very similar to the existing patrilineal option and would mean that for matrilineal families FH could default to the behaviour they want rather than none or the one they don't want.

If Bi-directional is implemented, selecting Matrilineal means when we create a mother, the mother's surname defaults to that of her first child.

3. Handling Illegitimacy in Patrilineal Cultures
Add another option

• None - equivalent of unchecked
• Patrilineal - equivalent of what we have at the moment
• Patrilineal+ - but use mother's surname if father is unknown
• Matrilineal - insert mother's surname (instead of the father's)
• Repeat - for subsequent children use the same surname as the previous child.

This would handle the situation that arises in Patrilineal cultures when children are born illegitimately and are registered under their mother's surname.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Wish List request 595 has been raised.