* FH V7 Source Citation Options

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FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by vikingalchemy » 21 Jan 2021 15:34

Does the introduction of templates in v7 not make Ancestral Sources redundant to a large extent as they seem to do similar jobs. I have never used AS and am wondering if it is now worth the effort of learning to use it or just to stick with FH itself.

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by tatewise » 21 Jan 2021 16:21

There are many criteria to consider when choosing which tools to use. The FHUG Knowledge Base articles Sources and Citations in Version 7 (for Upgraders) and Working with Sources and Citations in Version 6 and below discuss the options.

Yes, Source Templates and Data Entry Assistants offer new ways of working.
However, they are not compatible with your existing generic Source Citations derived from FH V6.
They also may not play well with imported & exported GEDCOM migrated to/from other products that mostly use generic Source Citations.

Ancestral Sources will operate happily with either generic or templated Source Citations.
Currently, it is far more stable & mature than the new tools in FH v7.

So you need to spend time investigating and understanding the pros & cons.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 21 Jan 2021 16:34

However, they are not compatible with your existing generic Source Citations derived from FH V6.
Not true, Mike. I'm developing a set of DEAs that will work with generic sources (and have published two of them for testing). Current fixing some of the bugs found before I republish for testing... But the important thing to remember is that some DEAs will work with generic sources!

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by tatewise » 21 Jan 2021 17:16

Thank you for that update. It is very difficult to give sound advice against a moving target.
However, will those Data Entry Assistants be compatible with existing generic Source Citations inherited from FH V6?
You cannot possibly know what style of generic Source Citations other people have created over the years.
They may not even follow a consistent style. So I don't understand how these new DEA will cope with that scenario.

Yes, they will support generic Source Citations but will they be compatible with legacy inherited Source Citations?
i.e. Are they highly customisable in the same way AS is highly customisable with templates for Titles of Sources & Media, and many other options for creating Facts associated with the Citations?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by NickWalker » 21 Jan 2021 17:40

If FH and DEAs one day make it quicker and easier to enter data than AS then I'm sure people will stop using it and I'll stop development. But for now that's far from being the case.
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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 21 Jan 2021 17:43

Yes, they will be Mike. A DEA doesn't have to extract information from the source template. Mine attempt to but if relevant fields aren't present, the user can provide the information themself .

The templates for Text from Source will be Autotext templates with defined fields such as {PRINCIPAL.BIRTHPLACE}; the user can edit the templates or complete new ones using the Autotext editing facilities.

They will not have as many options as AS supports (although I don't have AS installed at present as I'm avoiding copying it) -- from memory, some of the AS options are to do with configuring the source or source media (which for a DEA is irrelevant because it works with a source that the user has already prepared). They will support Method1 and Method2. Mostly they'll aim to carry out a sensible set of actions that will (in particular) help new users rapidly create the facts that most people would create in the way that most people would create them, without having to think about how they're doing it.

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by BillH » 21 Jan 2021 17:51

NickWalker wrote:
21 Jan 2021 17:40
If FH and DEAs one day make it quicker and easier to enter data than AS then I'm sure people will stop using it and I'll stop development. But for now that's far from being the case.
Even if they do get quicker and easier I don't anticipate ever using them, so please do not stop development of AS any time soon. :(

Bill

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by tatewise » 21 Jan 2021 18:04

Helen, I still don't understand how such DEA will 'fit' with generic Sources inherited from FH V6 by long time users who have designed their own use for all the generic fields: Title, Short Title, Author, Publication Info, Custom Id, Where within Source, Entry Date, etc.

I can see how such DEA can support new generic Sources that follow the design imposed by the DEA, but not how the DEA can be backwards compatible with existing generic Sources, unless the user customises them for their own purposes.
That is especially true if those inherited generic Sources do not follow any consistent format or style.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 21 Jan 2021 18:16

Helen, I still don't understand how such DEA will 'fit' with generic Sources inherited from FH V6 by long time users who have designed their own use for all the generic fields: Title, Short Title, Author, Publication Info, Custom Id, Where within Source, Entry Date, etc.
Try one: Some new Data Entry Assistant plugins for testing (V7) (18293)

They aren't bug free and I've some features still to add but you'll see the principles. And you can Undo the plugin updates after you've tested.

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by tatewise » 21 Jan 2021 19:14

I tried the Record Birth Data (Any) DEA and it confirmed what I have been saying.
The generic Source record it created was not the least bit like my generic Birth Source records I've used for years.
It put all the details in tables in the Text From Source and put nothing in the fields such as Title, Author, Publication Info.

So I say again, how can those new DEA create Source records that are compatible with the style of the data in the fields of my existing generic Source records that I've USD for years and many of which are produced by using AS to fill in the Title, Author, Publication Info, and other generic fields.

I am not saying they aren't useful, but simply that they are not capable of recreating the same format as established existing Source records, unless the user designs their own DEA for their own format.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 21 Jan 2021 19:19

Mike,

You have a fundamental misunderstanding.

My DEAs do not create sources. Users do.

DEAs create facts that cite a given source, and may create Text from Source (using a plugin autotext template chosen or created by the user.

I will in due course modify the Add Source from Template plugin to work as a DEA and populate Source fields (as the plugin does under FH6).

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by tatewise » 21 Jan 2021 19:41

So my original statement that you said was not true actually is true:
"However, they (DEA) are not compatible with your existing generic Source Citations derived from FH V6."

These new DEA do NOT help users create Source Citations in the same format as their existing Source Citations.
They actually create a completely different incompatible Text From Source format.

I really do not think it is helpful to upgrading users to suggest that those generic DEA are compatible with their inherited established existing Source Citation formats. Nothing that gets developed as a new tool, whether DEA or AutoText, can be compatible with the Source Citations of every upgrading user.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 21 Jan 2021 20:05

I'm not replicating AS (which creates sources). You need to get your head around the idea that DEAs are NOT a one-to-one replacement for AS (although one could be written -- I got a long way with developing a Lua equivalent of AS for FH6 for personal use, but never intended to release it to compete with AS) -- they are different beasts with different objectives (determined by the plugin author). And my objectives don't include creating sources.

The FH7 architecture for source-driven data entry starts with a source/citation prepared by the user using whatever method they choose, and there are a few around that are currently used for generic sources -- Add Source from Template, cloning a dummy source, entering everything manually, and I've probably forgotten a few -- we've discussed so many in these forums over the years. AS is one way of creating structured sources, and if you're a long time user, there may not be compelling reasons to change especially if you're not going to use Templated Sources.

My plugins will work with any source for which you Prepare a Citation. They don't dictate or expect a specific format of Source or Citation, not do they dictate a Text from Source format. You can decide not to create Text from Source (for example, if you want to copy and paste the TfS from a website); you can use a simple tabular Text from Source; or you can install Text from Source Plugin Autotext templates that other people have created; or you can create your own; and you can modify the templates you have installed. (As you will have read in the Plugin Help).

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by tatewise » 21 Jan 2021 20:29

You seem to be strongly agreeing with my original statement.
These DEA don't help the upgrading user in creating their Source Citations in the same format they have used in the past.
The user must still create their Source Citations and fill in all the details by whatever method they used before.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by Mark1834 » 21 Jan 2021 20:30

The draft plugins have been downloaded around 30 times since they were posted 6 weeks ago, but I have only seen comments from 3 people, 2 of which are very experienced Lua programmers.

Have any non-programmers got them working satisfactorily?
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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 22 Jan 2021 07:22

Mark, I've had one bug report which I'm working on. I suspect people are so busy getting to grips with new features, many of them aren't exploring DEAs yet. When they go in the plugin store I expect more feedback (because most feedback on DEAs so far has been on the ones in the plugin store).

Mike, correct. Amazingly, these plugins don't do something they're not intended to do (bugs aside). Nobody has ever said that DEAs create sources. You may have been assuming they do, but I've never claimed they do, nor does the Help file, nor does the KB.

You originally wrote "However, they are not compatible with your existing generic Source Citations derived from FH V6." which is what I corrected. They can be compatible, in that (if written to do so) they carry out the tasks they are intended to carry out with generic sources as well as templated ones. It isn't helpful when you make statements that are based on erroneous assumptions about what ALL DEAs do.

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by paultt » 22 Jan 2021 15:48

Helen,
As I use Generic Sources, I have been following this thread with interest and the linked thread where I managed to download the Record Death Data (Any) plugin, and an associate Death Certificate (England and Wales).ftf file. Imported the plugin, and copied the ftf file to the C:\ProgramData\Calico Pie\Family Historian\Autotext for Plugins\Record Death Data (Any) as recommended.
I ran the plugin, and am now more confused than ever and do not see the point of what you are trying to achieve! Sorry, in my opinion, the 'new' templated sources and citations and DEAs will not work with Generic Sources. You seem to have the approach that first we must find a document/image/whatever, then use the information off that document to create or Prepare a Citation, then create the Source from that Prepared Citation. And only then attach it to a fact or event for a person! To me, that is illogical and backward!
I have been building my family tree since 1961, initially on paper where I still have that first drawn tree with the aid of my grandmother. In the mid 1990s I set about computerising all my data into various packages until I ended up with FH in 2005, and still use FH. I think in the new vernacular, I would be considered as a 'lumper' in that I have one Source for the GRO, one per Category of Ancestry, FamilySearch or FindMyPast, etc in say 1861 England Census, England & Wales Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007, etc, and cite that source with citation details to the relevant event in a person's life. I attach any found documents to that Citation. Thanks to the power of FH and its' Charting facilities, I can see from a chart and its icons, which members of that branch of the tree are missing, for example, Death Certificates. So, my processes are similar to:
1. I see my grandmother's second husband, James Frederick Naylar, does not have a death certificate.
2. Go to the GRO website and search for his death entry - I know he died in 1957
3. Find the entry, make a note of their reference, and order the death certificate.
4. Death cert arrives. load up FH and navigate to his Property box records. Add the actual date of death and place of death (Salisbury, Wilts) to the existing death record. Hop over to the 'Sources for' pane with Ctrl=U. Click Cite an existing source, select the General Registry Office, enter today's date in the Entry Date field, Assessment as Secondary, and in the Where Within type in the GRO reference I used to order the Cert. Into the Text from Source, type in the cause of death, informant, and optionally the Registrar if I can read his writing. Change to the Media tab ibn the Citation, and add the pdf copy that the GRO emailed. Job done! I know that what I have done will export to my TNG websites.
Now in comparison, I go to Tools->Plugins and run the DEA record Death Data (Any) and it pops up a data capture screen:
DeathDEA screen.JPG
DeathDEA screen.JPG (108.61 KiB) Viewed 838 times
Note the top line...Death Entry : Norfolk, England Transcripts of Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burial Registers, 1600-1935
What am I supposed to do now? He died after 1935 and not in Norfolk! What am I supposed to do with ALL the fields listed in the 6 sections. If I don't fill them in, will the DEA clear all the existing info, or if I do, will it overwrite the existing info? So I check the plugin help, which does not really help other than telling me the fields are optional, and if I don't like the format, I can redesign the templates myself. Oh, and then I can optionally modify the DEA as well, using a programming language that I do not know! How long will that take me to do, when I can use the Generic Source and Citation per above in less than 5 minutes! And what will it give me on an export to TNG?
This is why I think that per Pareto's theorem, 80% of the users will have a look at the DEA as I have done, 20% of that 80% MAY actually try to get it to work and the other 80% not even bother. Hence you have only 1 or 2 of those who have downloaded your scripts, have actually reported on it.
I am in agreement with Mike here. I doubt that DEAs will work for Generic sources, as we would have to customise them to suit, and therefore they might as well go the whole hog and start using Templated Sources and Citations and forget about exporting their handiwork to any other application. Over 15 years of FH I probably have close to 2000 unique sources for South African entries alone, which I am not about to modify.

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 22 Jan 2021 16:53

Paul,
1. Source-driven versus fact-driven data entry

Your current mode of working is 'fact-driven':
  • Find a source document
  • Create a fact
  • (Optionally) Create a source record for the document
  • Cite the source for the fact
And you're absolutely right, preparing a Citation and running a DEA doesn't fit into that flow because Prepared Citations and DEAs are part of a 'source-driven' approach (which many people have been using for some years, even without the new tools:
  • Find a source document
  • Create a source record for the document
  • Create one of more facts that cite the source (using a DEA, Automatic Source Citation or Copy and Pasting the Prepared Citation)
DEAs don't fit into a fact-driven approach, and as you're happy with your workflow, there's no reason for you to switch to a source-driven one.

2. Your particular example

DEAs are NOT intended to be run via Tools > Plugins but via the Source+ button on the toolbar to Prepare a Source/Citation or View Prepared Citation. At the bottom of the Prepared Citation window, there's a drop-down to choose a DEA to run with the Prepared Citation. (It's important to remember that there is only ever one Prepared Citation in existence, which is stored in the Header record and remains there until you prepare another citation).

The DEA you're testing checks for the existence of a Prepared Citation and puts up a data entry window to collect the information it needs to create or update FACTS and FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS (not the Source). At some time in the past, you've prepared a Citation to "Death Entry : Norfolk, England Transcripts of Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burial Registers, 1600-1935" and that Source what the DEA will use in the Citations for facts it creates. What are you supposed to do? You're supposed to Prepare a Citation to the source you want to use, and invoke the DEA from the Prepared Citation window -- as per the guidance in the help file at https://www.family-historian.co.uk/help ... entry.html)

(I know I have to finish the documentation, but I'm not intending to do that until I understand exactly how much hand-holding people need, and also when the DEA is feature complete -- I have a number of things yet to add in including support for lumpers. I will be assuming that people have read the Help file).

What are you supposed to do with all the fields? Ignore them if you don't want them updated, or if they're not included in the source you're using. Also, if the DEA is proposing to modify data that's already present in your file, it will check with you that you want this to happen and skip the update if you decline. Your last line of defence (since you're running a plugin) is to undo Plugin Updates after the plugin completes but before you exit FH.

Re autotext templates, creating and modifying them is standard FH functionally, and no harder than creating or modifying the equivalents in AS. There is no way that a single individual can produce Text from Source templates suitable for all source documents. For example, I have no idea what a French Canadian Birth Certificate needs but somebody who has such a source in front of them can create the template if it's important to them to have something that closely matches the source rather than a generic table. I intend to make some templates for various regions of Great Britain and Ireland available for download from the KB, and hope that others will contribute any that they produce.

The Help does not suggest you modify the Lua plugin! I don't know where you saw that, other than more general discussions in the forums and/or during beta testing. For some other DEAs, users have asked if they can modify things while they're waiting for bug fixes and the author or other users have suggested relevant edits. I wouldn't expect that to be a routine proceeding -- the "Any" DEAs are designed to err on the side of prompting for too much data (most of which can be safely omitted) not too little.

3. Doubts and forebodings
I doubt that DEAs will work for Generic sources, as we would have to customise them to suit,
Since in a source-driven workflow, you create the Source before you run the DEA I'm struggling to see what you would need to customise. Maybe you can explain what customisation you think will be necessary? No, the DEA won't be able to extract any information from a Generic source template, but even when run with a Templated Source it can only extract a few fields (typically name date place and address) and everything else needed to create facts and family relationships has to be extracted from the source document by the user and entered into the DEA fields.
they might as well go the whole hog and start using Templated Sources and Citations and forget about exporting their handiwork to any other application
That rather depends on how they construct the source templates -- for years I've been exporting generic sources with all the information in the Source Title, a transcription in TfS, and nothing in the other fields; I'll simply modify the FH7 templates to put everything into the source title and also export the TfS , plus the metadata in a Source Note field. The applications I export to will use the Title and TfS and Notes as they always have, so there won't be any data loss. I haven't checked, but I think Mike's Export Gedcom Plugin will allow me to use a simple title in FH but replace that with the Footnote (with everything and the kitchen sink in it) on export, and include the fields in a Source Note, so my way of working will remain very easy.

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by Mark1834 » 23 Jan 2021 09:55

There is a step missing from that process flow. Neither what you describe as "source-driven" nor "fact-driven" start just with the source. We don't pick an arbitrary document and see if it relates to our tree. We are interested in the source because we believe it supports a new fact. Usually we find it as a result of looking for sources to support postulated facts (finding a family in a census, baptisms for a new family, etc).

IMO, whether we enter that fact first, then the source, and finally other facts supported by it and cited to it, or enter the source first and then all facts at the same time, is neither here nor there - it is personal preference, and one is no more "correct" that the other.

I agree that what you describe as source-driven is easier to automate than fact-driven, but the decision on whether to use AS or DEAs is about whether users prefer to make the link from source to fact manually or use some form of automation (with varying degrees of flexibility). That is not the same as the difference between fact-driven and source-driven entry. AS/DEAs probably require entering the source first, but using a source-driven approach does not require AS/DEAs.
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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 23 Jan 2021 10:17

Mark, true but I was focussing on the workflows as they relate to data entry in FH7, not the end-to-end research process (although I can bore on for hours about that if you wish ;) ).
IMO, whether we enter that fact first, then the source, and finally other facts supported by it and cited to it, or enter the source first and then all facts at the same time, is neither here nor there - it is personal preference, and one is no more "correct" that the other.
I agree -- source-driven data entry made most sense to me when I began researching umphty-mumph years ago and I've stuck with it, but if somebody prefers a fact-driven approach there's no reason they should change.

I also agree that a source-driven approach doesn't need As or DEAs -- I've worked without them for years. However, they're both ways of increasing consistency in data entry and/or allowing newcomers to spend more time on the exciting research bit and less on the boring data entry. :D

Existing AS users will continue using AS; existing 'fact-driven' users will continue to be fact driven; people who prefer to do everything 'manually' will carry on doing so. There is no one true path, and the world will not come to an end without one.

However, new users may find their way to DEAs to create facts derived from a source in a consistent way, and I'd be happiest if people didn't misrepresent what they're supposed to do/dismiss their usefulness on the grounds of mistaken assumptions.

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by NickWalker » 23 Jan 2021 11:47

When I first created the original version of AS (16 years ago!), I wasn't really thinking in terms of 'source driven' or 'fact driven'. I just wanted a quick way to enter all the information about a household from a census record. Effectively you're entering the facts on the screen (so is that 'fact driven'?) and then before saving AS is generating (and the user then edits as required) a source text transcript. AS then creates a source, creates all the facts and then links those facts to that source.

From the user's point of view they're just looking at the information on the census image and typing it into their family history software and I'm not sure that it actually is a different approach if you happen to create the source first, then the facts with links, or create the facts first, then the source, and then links. They both achieve the same thing in roughly the same length of time. (But more quickly if they use AS! 8-))
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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by LornaCraig » 23 Jan 2021 12:40

ColeValleyGirl wrote:
23 Jan 2021 10:17
source-driven data entry made most sense to me when I began researching umphty-mumph years ago and I've stuck with it
When I began research umphty-umphty-mumph years ago 'data entry' meant drawing charts on big sheets of paper by hand and 'sources' were elderly relatives whose memories, with hindsight, might best be assessed as Unreliable! :lol:
Lorna

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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by NickWalker » 23 Jan 2021 12:42

LornaCraig wrote:
23 Jan 2021 12:40
When I began research umphty-umphty-mumph years ago 'data entry' meant drawing charts on big sheets of paper by hand and 'sources' were elderly relatives whose memories, with hindsight, might best be assessed as Unreliable! :lol:
Yep same here but what I wouldn't give to be able to go back and ask them some more questions now! :(
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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by Mark1834 » 23 Jan 2021 14:42

I’ve got a thick ring binder on the shelf of 1980s extended family correspondence, mostly from people who are no longer with us. I find that it’s worth re-reading it occasionally, for references to people you’d never heard of at the time, but it might just solve a mystery. I had a breakthrough when I rediscovered a typed electoral roll extract in my file that I had made from a library visit decades ago, including pages that were missing from the Ancestry database because two pages had been turned over at once.
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Re: FH V7 Source Citation Options

Post by paultt » 23 Jan 2021 16:55

Helen,

OK, it appears that I have misunderstood where and how these plugins should be run. So let me try and test it again. I downloaded the England and Wales Death certificate as per :
"The plugins include the facility to define your own Text from Source templates or to use one that somebody else has created.. If you want to test this, I've attached links to a few templates (eventually I'll make them attachments when the file type is supported):
-- England & Wales Birth certificate
-- England & Wales Death certificate
-- Scottish Birth certificate
Apologies for any mistakes in these! You will need to copy each template file (file extension .ftf) into
C:\ProgramData\Calico Pie\Family Historian\Autotext for Plugins\Record Death Data (Any)"
I now have Death Certificate(England and Wales).ftf in the above mentioned folder.
What do I do with it to get it to show up as the template for your DEA? I have tried to follow the Help pages to no avail - cannot find instructions on how to add the template so that hopefully I can select it.
The manage Autotext does not highlight the Import Button.
Baby steps please!
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