* Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

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terryjacombs
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Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by terryjacombs » 09 Jan 2021 12:45

I have added a column to the sources tab in the records window to show the repository the source is linked to. The expression use in the configuration window is %SOUR.REPO[1]>%.

For all generic sources i.e. those created in FH6 or earlier this repository name is correctly displayed in the added column.

I decided to use templated sources when I moved to FH7 for all new sources (I may convert the old generic ones to templated as time goes by).

Sources created using a template sometimes show the repository name but sometimes it is not displayed. I think I have tracked down the circumstances which lead to the two conditions.

If I create the source directly within FH using the create source/prepare citation option, the repository name is not displayed in the column. If I create the source via Ancestral Sources it is. Whether the template is a one of the original ones supplied or one I have modified does not appear to make any difference.

The following screen snips illustrate the issue.
Modded Source unexpanded.jpg
Image

Two sources 9002 Banns of marriage created within FH - no repository displayed, 9003 Parish Marriage created via Ancestral Sources - repository displayed. Both sources are linked to the same repository. They both use a modded template based on the Church Register one provided.


Modded Source expanded.jpg
Image

The same two sources expanded in the records window, which shows that both are correctly linked to the same repository, but the Ancestral Sources entered one creates two repository links, one suffixed by (t) which is the template field one without the suffix which is presumably the original generic source field.
I have also included a screen snip of a source using an unmodded template created within FH which shows that only the suffix (t) link is recorded.

Unmodded Source expanded.jpg

Image

So I need to add a second column to pick up the templated repository field but cannot work out what the expression needs to be - presumably there is an expression formula which can be used to pick up any templated field by changing some text in the expression.

I can display the name of a template field with expression %SOUR._SRCT>FDEF[7].NAME%, but what I want is the value not the name and using a fixed subscript does not work anyway, as the fields are not always in the same relative position in different templates.

So what I am looking for for is an expression which says "If name of template field = "repository" (or any other field name to allow different fields to be displayed), display the value of the field in the column.

Is this possible?
Any help gratefully received.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 13:17

Exercise caution with trying to use Generic Sources and Templated Sources in the same Project.
The fields used by Generic Sources are traditional GEDCOM fields.
The fields used by Templated Sources are all custom fields that are very different in nature.
A {Repository} or {Author} field in a Templated Source is completely different from a generic Repository or Author field.

So for a Templated Source, the data ref would be %SOUR._FIELD[1]% or %SOUR._FIELD[2]% depending on whether the Repository field was 1st or 2nd, etc...

However, take a look at Adding Citation information to Templated Sources (18646) which despite its name covers more general concepts such as using {%SOUR.REPO%} in Templated Sources to map onto the traditional GEDCOM field of Generic Sources and may avoid the need to convert them.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by terryjacombs » 09 Jan 2021 14:25

Thank you that Mike, I will have a look at that.

Do you happen to know how Ancestral Sources manages to put the repository link into both the templated field and generic field which its is clealy achieving?

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 14:47

Well writing to %SOUR.REPO% is obviously straightforward, but for the Template field AS must search for one with data type Repository which in data ref terms is %SOUR._FIELD[n]% where n is any integer and its value starts with RP-.

You might be able to mimic that in a Records Window column but the Expression gets cumbersome.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by terryjacombs » 09 Jan 2021 15:47

Thank you for your help Mike

I do not post to the group very often as I can usually am able to find my way about the software fairly proficiently, but I do regularly read the posts and am grateful for you and the other regular contributors who provide so much help and advice to all of us less knowledgeable.

In this case I misled myself by using the standard templates as a base which (the ones I started with) all had a repository field included as one of the template fields and I assumed this was the same as the generic one (without thinking if I am honest!). All I need to do is modify those templates to remove the repository field and customise the citation window to add a generic repository field for input. Ancestral Sources obviously continues to create the generic field then fills the template field from that.

The footnotes and bibliography just then need editing to pick up the generic source as outlined in the other topic yoiu pointed me to.

As with many things quite simple when you know how.

Many thanks again.

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 15:53

If you have removed the Repository field from the Source Template, and build Templated Sources from that Template, there won't be a Repository (t) SOUR._FIELD for AS to use, only the generic SOUR.REPO field.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by terryjacombs » 09 Jan 2021 16:11

Which is exactly what I want - the only things I want to put into the template are things which would be in notes, text from source etc from generic sources and are not available as a generic source field, I am perfectly happy to customise the citation window as needed to mix both.

The big advantage to me is that I can impose some discipline in the source data entry which is harder to ensure with free form text etc and ensure that important bits of information are not left out inadvertently, although autoxtext could also be used. I also find it much more useable to have the structured citation window with field definitions alongside the other windows as I am doing things although I know many have found the new facilities more challenging.

As ever with with FH from the early days there are several ways to do things which each person can customise to their own tastes which is why I consider it one of the best value for money softawre products I have ever used.

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 16:45

I wonder if you are confusing a number of different features.

Source Templates don't govern Notes or Text From Source. They are more focussed on specific data fields and formatting Title, Footnote, Short Footnote & Bibliography.

Data Entry Assistants (DEA) are what format Notes and Text From Source, and maybe other data entry, and in many respects are a substitute for AS. They have their own form of Autotext.

Autotext provides boilerplate text for manual use mainly in Notes and Text From Source.

I may have over-simplified those features and no doubt those more expert in these tools will add comments.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by NickWalker » 09 Jan 2021 17:23

I've commented elsewhere in the past that I think it's a shame that FH7 didn't just make use of the existing Repository link rather than adding an entirely FH7 bespoke repository link when using templated sources. The link from Source to Repository is a standard GEDCOM link that's been used for decades and so now if you export your GEDCOM to another product a conversion process (e.g. export plugin?) will need to recreate those repository links. I'm sure there's a good argument as to why Calico did it that way but without knowing that it just seems illogical to me.

There is an option in AS to duplicate these repository links so it continues to create the standard repository link as well as any link which might happen to be within the template. That is meant to be off by default (and indeed it is if you look at the Options). However, I've just a had a look at this and it appears this option is being ignored currently so the duplicate repository link is being created and therefore is not honouring that setting. I don't believe this will cause any problems at all and does help with compatability, but I'll aim for that option to be working in the next version of AS (coming soon). So at that point if you want it to continue to create the standard repository links you'll need to turn the option on.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 18:05

I agree, Nick.
Users like you and I are jumping through hoops to make our software work with Templated Repository links.
My Export Gedcom File plugin converts them to generic GEDCOM SOUR.REPO links but some users may not know that.
Any imported GEDCOM with generic Repository links may need converting to Templated Repository links.

The workaround I describe in Adding Citation information to Templated Sources (18646) simply replaces every Templated {Repository} with {%SOUR.REPO%} and the problem dissolves away ~ no hoop jumping or conversion needed.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 09 Jan 2021 18:12

The workaround I describe in Adding Citation information to Templated Sources (18646) simply replaces every Templated {Repository} with {%SOUR.REPO%} and the problem dissolves away ~ no hoop jumping or conversion needed.
Perhaps, but I have no intention of using it. It transfers the hoop jumping from the few to the many, but worse than that it introduces unnecessary additional complexity.

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 18:33

Maybe for you, Helen, but for users who regularly import/export GEDCOM from/to other products that all use generic Source GEDCOM fields then the workaround is the only viable solution.
For these users, the complexity is converting between Generic Sources and default Templated Sources.
Why else is that feature described in the Help page for Source Template Formats?
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 09 Jan 2021 18:47

Why else is that feature described in the Help page for Source Template Formats?
For use with Generic sources, perhaps.

I remain to be convinced that modifying every standard source template as you suggest is a sensible way forward, when you already have (I believe) coded the transformation in the Export Gedcom file plugin, thus dealing with the complexity?

Perhaps we also need an Import Gedcom file plugin...

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 19:06

I've considered an Import Gedcom File plugin before but the problem is that the data structure is not consistent.
Even from the same product, users employ too many different structures to make it feasible, and they would not be happy to lose data.
Exporting is easier as there is guarantee of preserving all data needed.
But even the Export Gedcom File plugin does NOT, in general, create generic Source fields.
It does handle the special case of Repository and offers a special case for Title and Short Title but nothing else for such as Author or Publication Info, etc. It is far too complex.

As far as I can tell, other products, even where they have templates, still work with generic Source record fields, at least as far as GEDCOM import & export. FH seems to be the only one to put custom template _FIELDs in the GEDCOM.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by AdrianBruce » 09 Jan 2021 21:21

NickWalker wrote:
09 Jan 2021 17:23
I've commented elsewhere in the past that I think it's a shame that FH7 didn't just make use of the existing Repository link rather than adding an entirely FH7 bespoke repository link when using templated sources. ...
Slightly from ignorance here, sitting calmly in v6-land but worrying over the way forward...

I may be misunderstanding this - but if I understand the things in these threads correctly, v.7 Templated Sources don't appear to use the same Repository item in their Source Records as previously existing Generic Source Records (out of the box). I'm not even certain if Templated Sources have a fixed item for Repository? (Ignorance on my part, freely admitted).

I would really like to use the more powerful source templating for new types of source-records. But the opinions in these threads are worrying me. :? To take Repository as an example, how on earth am I supposed to write a query on source records that lists the repositories if I have some generic and some templated sources?

If I can use the remap back to the existing Repository item (if I understand) that Mike and others propose here, then that would remove at least one cause of confusion. I don't mind making myself think over new items that are obviously different between generic and templated sources - but Repository is not obviously different and is a problem waiting to happen, it appears to me without the remap.
Adrian

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 09 Jan 2021 22:18

I have not yet investigated the Query aspect of looking up a Templated Repository item.
Its data ref is definitely different from a generic SOUR.REPO but exactly what it is I'm not sure yet.
It is not clear that Templated Sources do have a fixed ref for the Repository item.

There are other similar template versus generic cases, like the {Page_Etc} versus {%CUR~CITN.PAGE%} refs for the Citation Where Within Source that initiated the other thread.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by AdrianBruce » 09 Jan 2021 23:21

Thanks Mike - if remapping can be done, then I presume that it may help. I assume it will take an effort adjusting loads of templates, somehow, in some sort of order, but the alternative is for me to ignore templated sources entirely. In which case, why bother to upgrade?

For me some of these things may or may not be particularly important to have in queries. But what of the "List All Citations for a Source" plug-in? Does that cope with a mix of templated and generic sources in one project? If so, pulling out the page details in a query might not be that important.

Slowly, slowly, one case at a time, so long as I can find things and they're not hidden. So long as I know I've got to look for things!
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by LornaCraig » 10 Jan 2021 00:49

the alternative is for me to ignore templated sources entirely. In which case, why bother to upgrade?
I'm ignoring Templated Sources entirely, but upgraded because of some of the other things listed in https://www.family-historian.co.uk/whats-new-in-7
what of the "List All Citations for a Source" plug-in? Does that cope with a mix of templated and generic sources in one project?
Yes, but you don't really need it because there is now an option in the cog menu of the Source Property Box or the Citation Window to Show Source Record's Citations in Results Window
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 10 Jan 2021 07:26

Personally, I would advise users for whom regular import/exports is vitally important to stay with Generic sources. And I'm not convinced that mixing Generic Sources with Templated Sources is the right way forward either, because of the problems/complexity of achieving consistent reports.

Templated Sources are ideal for users new to FH who won't be doing a lot of importing (exporting is easier to handle with Mike's plugin); and for users intending to do a 'Do-Over.'

Oddly enough this is the advice in the KB.

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by AdrianBruce » 10 Jan 2021 07:55

Lorna - thanks for the advice re the plugin and the alternatives. The "other features" that you refer to, have to be balanced out in my mind by the hopefully short term issues with narrative reports not respecting initial PARA and PDF printing, etc.

Helen - I've never done any imports, seldom export to anyone other than myself, but have sources of all sorts of formats and rigour - never having had the inclination to do a do-over. It might very well be that the inconsistencies push me away from templated sources. Certainly I'll never have more than a few new types. But I feel like I should at least try something when I do finally upgrade. At least I'll be forewarned and if some of the techniques referred to replace some of the obscurities at the expense of some work on the few templated sources that I will use, that has to be better.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 10 Jan 2021 11:44

I don't understand why Helen keeps saying my plugin makes exporting easier to handle.
As I said before:
Even the Export Gedcom File plugin does NOT, in general, create generic Source fields.
It does handle the special case of Repository and offers a special case for Title and Short Title but nothing else for such as Author or Publication Info, etc. It is far too complex.
I have also just realised that my Where Used Record Links plugin does not show Templated Citation fields when reporting on Source record usage. Back to the drawing board...

Helen, the KB Sources and Citations in Version 7 (for New Users) does warn about Templated Sources if importing GEDCOM regularly, but Sources and Citations in Version 7 (for Upgraders) does not.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 10 Jan 2021 11:58

tatewise wrote:
10 Jan 2021 11:44
I don't understand why Helen keeps saying my plugin makes exporting easier to handle.
As I said before:
Even the Export Gedcom File plugin does NOT, in general, create generic Source fields.
It does handle the special case of Repository and offers a special case for Title and Short Title but nothing else for such as Author or Publication Info, etc. It is far too complex.
i.e. it makes exporting easier. I didn't say it made it perfect.

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 10 Jan 2021 12:07

You know that, and I know that, but somebody else may expect more than is available.

BTW: I have discovered how to refer to Templated Source fields such as Repository (t) and Author (t) using data references.
So generic %SOUR.REPO% becomes templated %SOUR~RP-REPOSITORY% assuming its field name is Repository.
and generic %SOUR.AUTH% becomes templated %SOUR~TX-AUTHOR% assuming its field name is Author and is textual.
However, the FH Data Reference Assistants that help with generic cases do not help at all with templated cases.
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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 10 Jan 2021 12:10

tatewise wrote:
10 Jan 2021 12:07
BTW: I have discovered how to refer to Templated Source fields such as Repository (t) and Author (t) using data references.
So generic %SOUR.REPO% becomes templated %SOUR~RP-REPOSITORY% assuming its field name is Repository.
and generic %SOUR.AUTH% becomes templated %SOUR~TX-AUTHOR% assuming its field name is Author and is textual.
However, the FH Data Reference Assistants that help with generic cases do not help at all with templated cases.
Probably because the variations are infinite (TT-FIELDNAME where TT is the field type and FIELDNAME can be pretty well anything).

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Re: Records window customisation odd problem (FH7)

Post by tatewise » 10 Jan 2021 12:27

Agreed, but FH must know what they are and for any particular Project the set will be quite small and finite.
It is essentially no different than custom Facts and FH knows all about them, both global and Project local ones.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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