* Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

For existing requests please see The Wish List
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Gowermick
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Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 12 Dec 2020 12:54

It would be really useful, when creating a new citation, to be able to use the details from an existing citation for the new citation. Quite often, a new citation only difers from an existing citation by one or two characters, so to be able to make use of what is already there would great time saver.

E.g. ‘Copy’ then ‘Paste as New’
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by tatewise » 12 Dec 2020 13:04

Don't the Copy Citation and Paste Citation buttons do that?

Why do they not work for you?
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 12 Dec 2020 14:59

Mike,
If I copy citation 14122 then paste it, it is still 14122, and if I change that, it is changing the original!
I want to be able to copy 14122 to a new citation 14123, which I can then edit as I wish, without changing original 14122.
It is like a word processor, when you use “Save As”. It creates a new document whilst leaving the original as it was. To be honest, it is one of the few features that I miss from FTM. :D
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by LornaCraig » 12 Dec 2020 15:07

When you copy and paste a citation you can then click the Edit Source citation button to open the source with that citation displayed in the Citation Window and change just the citation details without changing the source record. Isn't that what you want?

If you want to make a clone of the whole source record, use the Automatic Source Citations pane where the cog menu has an option to Clone Source Record. None of this is very different from V6, it's just that you see the citation in the new Citation Window now.
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 12 Dec 2020 17:05

Lorna,
We seem to be at cross purposes between Sources and Citations, or I use them differently from everyone else!
I don't use AS and what you're suggesting seems a bit of a sledgehammer/walnut situation. :D

I have a Source Record [e.g.44166] Titled GRO B Reg 1910 Q3 Ref Droitwich 6c 149, which I use as a citation for the Name of an individual. I then Copy that Source Record (using button at bottom of Sources Pane ) and Paste it as the Citation for the person's DOB and Place of Birth (using Paste button at bottom of Sources pane), so all three facts Cite the same source [44166], which now has three citations.

What I am suggesting is an extra button at bottom of Sources pane Paste as New, which Copies the information from Source [44166], and Pastes it as a new Source record [e.g.44396]. I can then edit the title of [44396] GRO B Reg 1910 Q3 Ref Droitwich 6c 149 to read GRO B Reg 1912 Q1 Ref Droitwich 6c 163 without affecting source [44166] and use [44396] as a citation for another individual's Name, Dob & Place of Birth.
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by tatewise » 12 Dec 2020 17:16

Please read Lorna's 2nd paragraph which does what you want but via a different dialogue:
The Automatic Source Citations dialogue cog menu Clone Source Record.

Alternatively, in the Records Window select the Source record [44166] and use the Clone Any Record plugin when it has been updated for FH v7.

FYI:
Sources are the Source records.
Citations are the LINK between Facts/Names/Records and Source records and appear on the Sources For yellow pane.
So the Copy Citation button does just that and copies the Citation fields including the LINK to the Source record.
Because each Citation is a different instance, the Paste Citation is effectively a Save As for the Citation but not the Source record itself.
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 12 Dec 2020 18:28

tatewise wrote:
12 Dec 2020 17:16
Sources are the Source records.
Citations are the LINK between Facts/Names/Records and Source records and appear on the Sources For yellow pane.
So the Copy Citation button does just that and copies the Citation fields including the LINK to the Source record.
Because each Citation is a different instance, the Paste Citation is effectively a Save As for the Citation but not the Source record itself.
I understand the Citation is the Link between the fact and the Source, but surely that can’t be edited, as Lorna suggested. Only the source can be edited, but as that is same source as the one copied, it defeats the object of what I’m after.
As for Your and Lorna’s suggestion to use Automatic Source Citations, I admit I confused that with Ancestral Sources by Nick, hence my sledgehammer comment :D
i’ll look further into ASC, but at first glance, it seems a poor alternative to having a simple Paste as New button on the Sources Pane.
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by LornaCraig » 12 Dec 2020 19:37

I understand the Citation is the Link between the fact and the Source, but surely that can’t be edited, as Lorna suggested
I think you still misunderstand. When you copy and paste a citation you are creating new link between an exising source and a fact/name/record to which it is not already linked. That link contains information like Where within Source, Text from source (that is, Citation text from source), Assessment level, Note (citation note) and entry date (the latter intended for the date the entry was made in the original source, but some people use it for other purposes.) So now you have a new citation (link) to the source, which contains exactly the same informaton as the first citation. You can now edit the citation details in the new link, to change, for example, the Where within Source to a different page number. The source now has two citations to two different facts/names/records with slightly different details, in this case the page number.

This was just the same in V6. The only difference is that you now do the editing of the citaion details in the lower panel of the Citation Window instead of in the Sources For pane attached to the Property Box.

If you want to make a copy of the Source record itself but don't want to use the Automatic Source Citation pane (and personally I don't), try the Clone Any Record plugin which Mike referred to. The only reason I didn't mention it in my previous reply was that I didn't think it had yet been updated for V7. You can add that plugin to the main tools menu so that it can be run very quickly. Again, this was just the same in V6.
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 12 Dec 2020 19:58

I have now tried ASC method, and admit I was completely bemused by the whole process, and it bore no resemblnce to the simplicy of my proposal!.

Using the ASC method, I had to
1. Open ASC
2. Click Select/ Select Existing Souce
2. find the target source record I wished to clone, then click OK
3. Click cog wheel and clone it,
4. find the cloned source to use as the citation, then click ok
5 Edit record as required

My proposal is
1. Click Add citation in Sources pane
1. Find target source to copy, then click ok to select it
2. Click "Save as New" button to create a clone and assign to fact in one step
3. Edit record - done

Basically my proposal combines cloning a source and assigning it as a citation into one click of a button from the Sources pane, with no need for ASC at all!
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by LornaCraig » 12 Dec 2020 20:22

As I said in my last reply, I don't use the Auto Source Pane either, for similar reasons to yours. The Clone any Record plugin is quicker (if and when it is updated for V7): just select a source in the Records window and click the plugin (which can be added to the tools menu) to run it.

I confess I still don't know whether you really do want to clone the Source record or just clone a citation and then edit the citation. When you say "Basically my proposal combines cloning a source and assigning it as a citation into one click of a button from the Sources pane" you are then going to end up with two identical sources with identical citations. If you then edit the cloned source itself you'll almost certainly need to edit the cloned citation as well, because it's unlikley that the two almost idential sources would need absolutely identical citation details. On the other hand if you don't edit the cloned source record but only the citation details why bother to clone it? You'll end up with a multitude of identical sources. Just copy and paste an existing citation and then edit the copied citation.
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by tatewise » 12 Dec 2020 21:04

From his comments, I assume Mike is using 'splitter' Method 1 in which Citations often consist of just the Source link.
That is why he is not considering the Citation fields.
He asking for the Save As button to create a Citation link between a new current fact/name/record and a Cloned Source record, which can then be edited as it needs to be similar but not identical to the original.
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 12 Dec 2020 21:07

LornaCraig wrote:
12 Dec 2020 20:22
you are then going to end up with two identical sources with identical citations.
Correct! But it immediately appears in the citation window ready to be edited into the new source, saving me a lot of typing.

Whereas some people have GRO as the Source, and have the reference D Reg 1928 Q2 Ref Worcester 6c 126 as part of the citation. I use the GRO D Reg 1928 Q2 Ref Worcester 6c 126 as the Source, and don't bother with the citation part. Makes it easier to copy/clone/re-use similar references.

My current method of creating a new source is to click Add Citation to open source records. Find a similar Source to copy, highlight it and copy it (Ctl-C). Click New/Generic move to citation window then paste (Ctrl-V) into the title. Then edit Title. of the newly created Source.

This worked well in FH6, where only a few extra characters like [S5690] at the beginning of the copied text needed to be deleted. With VH7 howevr, along with the [S5690] at the beginning of the title, there is additional text at the end that needs to be removed, not ideal, but better than having to type it all out everytime!
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by LornaCraig » 12 Dec 2020 21:24

OK, sorry. What puzzled me was your assertion that a citation couldn't be edited. I thought perhaps what you really wanted was to clone (copy and paste) a citation but you thought that you would not then be able to edit the new citation (which you can).

I think you would have found things easier in V6 if you had used the Clone any Record plugin. It may not get updated for V7, but clearly there would be a use for it.

I'm not sure what the "additional text at the end that needs to be removed" in V7 is?
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by tatewise » 12 Dec 2020 22:34

If the author Peter Richmond does not update that plugin I will - eventually!
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 13 Dec 2020 11:14

Update:
Improvement on my methodology
Instead of copying whole Source Record from Select Source Pane, I found that if I just copy Title Line of the source from Select Source pane, I don't get all the unwanted text, just an Extra "Title:" prefix.
So whereas In FH6 I got [S56598] GRO B etc,, in FH7 I now get Title : GRO B etc - Result!
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by tatewise » 13 Dec 2020 15:35

So, can this be removed from the New Wish List Requests forum and put in the FH General Usage forum?
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by Gowermick » 13 Dec 2020 16:27

Mike,
I consider my methodology a workaround. Much neater to have a single click solution.
I.e select the target source, then click Copy as New button to create a new source AND copy text into new source at the same time.

I consider FH far superior to FTM, so if they can do it, why not FH? :D
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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 29 Mar 2021 10:25

tatewise wrote:
12 Dec 2020 22:34
If the author Peter Richmond does not update that plugin I will - eventually!
Mike, if you're referring to Clone Any Record plugin, the plugin store says it was updated in January to work with V7.

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Re: Ability to make a new copy of existing citation.

Post by dbnut » 15 Jan 2022 23:36

I can't resist chipping in to this mouldering request. My two cents-worth doesn't violate the wording of its title, but isn't quite the same thing.

Like Gowermick, I have an aversion to having to rely on plugins and other aids like AS for tasks that, in my little world, ought to be part of the FH standard repertoire.

And let me say I have immense respect for Lulu Lua & the merry band. Various plugins have become essential to my work. If pushed, I'd use one for this. In a better world, I'd take time out to learn Lua myself - I think it's a beautiful scripting language. In an ideal world, I'd get FH "fixed".

My need is for a one-click method to re-link a citation (Oh dear: "Source Citation") to a different existing source. Method 2, of course.

When? During clean-up of 15 years-worth of evolving (maturing) source definition/classification amongst 70 projects (and counting). Trying to catch up with my years.

On the surface, that's not a big deal from a relational viewpoint. For GEDCOM, it's really wonky. But Calico is good at bridging the two world views.

I'd hoped, by now, to have worked through my intended post on overhauling the entire source-citation nomenclature and presentation/workflow to align more correctly with (relational and reality) models, pace Lorna.

As luck (or the devil?) would have it, Mike Tate's eye-opener re. customising the citation property box was life-transforming (almost) and the wind went out of my sail.

My recommendation: Gowermick has a request deserving more consideration; there are related operations to consider; we should review them both in a broader context of source/citation in general.
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