*Source help

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WilliamFrier
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Source help

Postby WilliamFrier » 13 May 2019 19:27

Well I finally started redoing my family tree using FH. I transferred my tree from FTM a long while ago and only just realised that the sources hadn't transferred over properly, so my tree is in a bit of a guddle. Now I am happy to start over again, so please don't think I am looking to try and sort the old tree out I am just going to use it for help anytime I hit a wall that I had passed before.

Now here is my problem, I used Automatic Source Citations when I added my birth certificate and think that may be where my problem came from (but maybe not). I have ended up with 11 citations and can only find 8 as I would have expected (although ASC didn't add citation to Name) My question is, is there a way to look at a source and see what it is connected too? I don't have many items in my new tree, so I was able to look through all the entries and just can't find where these extra citations have came from.

Hope someone out there can help, as once I stopped using ASC and added the citations individually all was fine (that is why I thought ASC was the problem) with my citation count.

William
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WilliamFrier
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Re: Source help

Postby WilliamFrier » 13 May 2019 19:47

Just another quick question, why when you look at the Facts for Birth is there a section for age? I ask this because obviously at birth you are age 0 years, but if you put 0 in the box FH puts an exclamation mark next to the zero in Facts. Why?
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Re: Source help

Postby pwe » 13 May 2019 20:10

William,
To find out where a source is used highlight the source in the source records window. Then click on "view" along the top and then select "record links".
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Re: Source help

Postby Gowermick » 13 May 2019 20:19

There is standard query (not on my PC at the moment, so can’t give you its name) which can list all uses of a citation. Which is exactly what you’re after. Run the query, select your citation and the results list will list everybody who have used the citation and why. If the citation has been used more than once for an individual, each occurrence will be listed separately, so an individual may be listed more than once!

Regards your second point, there is a similar problem with burials, where you cannot give an age. I haven’t explored these, but know one can edit some fact definitions to determine what is expected to be filled in. Whether you can edit thendefinitions for Birth or Burial, I’ll leave it to others to give the answer :D
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Re: Source help

Postby DavidNewton » 13 May 2019 20:25

The existence of an age field in the Birth event does suggest that the Fact definition has been altered. Have a look at the Tools>Fact Types. Select Birth from the list and then Edit from the right hand list of buttons. The Fields required near the bottom will probably include a check against Age, uncheck it.

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Re: Source help

Postby LornaCraig » 13 May 2019 21:24

I think Gowermick is referring to the query called Individuals Linked to Source. It produces a list similar to the View>Record Links referred to by pwe. But note that it only lists Individual records linked to the source, not other types of record (e.g. Family records, Note records, Place Records), and it does not show which field(s) within the record are linked to the source. It just shows how many links each individual has to the source.

There are two plugins which are more useful: List All Citations for a Source and Where Used Record Links which both produce a results set showing the exact fields linked to the source. (The second of these plugins works for any record type, not just Sources). Double clicking on a cell in the results set opens the Property Box with the focus on the relevant fact.
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Re: Source help

Postby Gowermick » 13 May 2019 22:09

Lorna,
My mistake, it was the List all Citations for a source plugin I was referring too (memory fail, I thought it was a query :D ). I use it so often, that I have it linked to a menu item for quick access.
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Re: Source help

Postby Gowermick » 13 May 2019 22:14

DavidNewton wrote:The existence of an age field in the Birth event does suggest that the Fact definition has been altered. Have a look at the Tools>Fact Types. Select Birth from the list and then Edit from the right hand list of buttons. The Fields required near the bottom will probably include a check against Age, uncheck it.

David


Thank you David, I've now corrected my Birth fact (to exclude age) and Burial fact (to include Age).

That's the trouble (Joy?) with FH, there are so so many little facilities like this, one tends to forget them.
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Re: Source help

Postby tatewise » 13 May 2019 22:18

Yes, the Where Used Record Links Plugin is the mpst comprehensive solution.
See Knowledge Base > Finding where Records are used for all the techniques.

The reason Birth Events have an Age field is revealed if you click to get the drop-list of options that includes Stillborn.
Likewise for Death Events the options include Child and Infant.
Those are all standard options for GEDCOM values for Age and I think are found on Birth/Death Certificates.
So the Age field should be enabled for both events, as is the case by default.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Source help

Postby Gowermick » 14 May 2019 06:59

tatewise wrote:The reason Birth Events have an Age field is revealed if you click to get the drop-list of options that includes Stillborn.


Sorry Mike, but I strongly disagree. Stillborn may be an appropriate age for death, as is Child and Infant but never for a Birth. How can you be born an Infant?

Age is defined as the time someone has existed since Birth, so by definition, must always be Zero at birth, which is when the calculation starts. FH and Gedcom seem to have a generic set of values for Age, so just because Stillborn is an appropriate option for age at Death, doesn't make it right to use it for Births.
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Re: Source help

Postby mjashby » 14 May 2019 08:55

Mike (Loney),

And I would respectfully disagree with you, as 'stillborn' literally means that the chid 'never lived outside the womb' i.e. was born dead; and therefore was truly zero years old at both the recorded 'birth' and 'death' events as we can understand such happenings; and it is also how we should record them as family history events. Any child (tragically) dying shortly after birth would/should have a 'true age' no matter how short that precious time was and that also needs to be recognised. The issue of providing Birth Certificates for stillbirths (in the UK) was introduced relatively recently and only after significant public pressure to officially acknowledge a life not lived. Similar pressures are now being pursued to persuade the Government of the need to introduce the provision of some form of official 'Certificated' recognition to parents for miscarriages experienced after 'x' weeks.

Mervyn

P.S. With my apologies to anyone who finds such discussions as being in any way insensitive/distasteful. No offence is meant.

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Re: Source help

Postby tatewise » 14 May 2019 09:14

With the same apologies, nevertheless, in a Birth Event every Age value that can be entered has (!) appended afterwards in the Facts tab to indicate it is inconsistent, but with the one exception of Stillborn that in FH/GEDCOM terms is considered a valid condition at birth.

You can of course avoid using that value, and can disable the Age box, but it is for that Stillborn value that the Age field is enabled by default in Birth Events.

I suspect the reasoning behind that is to allow every Individual record to have both a Birth Event and a Death Event even in the case of a stillbirth.

I am sure I've also read somewhere that in order to register a death there needs to be a registered birth, and in this case both would have stillborn recorded.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Source help

Postby jbtapscott » 14 May 2019 09:40

You are correct Mike (Tait) in that a Stillbirth (as the Government website calls it) has to be registered.
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Re: Source help

Postby Gowermick » 14 May 2019 10:00

Miketate & Mervyn,
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, but would like to make one comment about Mervyn's contention that a stillborn child has a true age of 0 at birth, and that is that ALL children have a true age of 0 at birth!

The difference being that this poor child had a true age of 0 at Death! :(

I might add that I would only attribute 'Stillborn' to the death fact. To be honest, I never realised there was a dropdown box for age, and thought it only accepted Years or months :D
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Re: Source help

Postby mjashby » 15 May 2019 09:37

Mike,

I'll believe I'll stick with 'Stillborn' as a definite indication that a birth took place..

Although I am not religious, that, for me, fits better alongside the Parish Register entries I've recorded that show stillborn children as being both baptised (but not necessarily named) and buried immediately after 'delivery/birth'. The harsh reality is that some of these events even show phrases such as "A child of .... was baptised & buried, born dead".

Mervyn

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Re: Source help

Postby WilliamFrier » 17 May 2019 10:14

Well I have solved my citation count issue, I used the List All Citations For A Source plugin and found that Auto Source Citation adds a citation for each new individual (Mum, dad in this instance) and one for a new family (my dads family as it was my birth certificate). That's where my 3 extra citations came from, now what they are used for I don't know but at least I know why there was a difference. Thanks for all the help offered as it has now made me have a look at plugin's and learn about another part of FH, brief though it may have been at the moment.
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Re: Source help

Postby tatewise » 17 May 2019 12:16

William, going back to your original posting about reviewing your Sources, I suggest you study Knowledge Base > Recording Facts and Sources and consider the recurring advice to use Knowledge Base > Ancestral Sources to capture BMD & Census records.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Source help

Postby WilliamFrier » 18 May 2019 12:31

Hi Mike, I had no problems inputting information it was more a problem with Auto Source Citations in FH that I didn't understand how it was adding citations that I felt that I wasn't putting in. As I alluded to in my last post I had put in 9 pieces of information from a birth certificate one of them being a name (Father) but FH also adds a citation for the individual but at the same point it is nowhere to be found if you look for it. Once I used the plugin List All Citations For A Source I realised why there seemed to be extra citations. I am sure there is a reason for having citations for each new individual and each new family, I just haven't found out why yet.

As for Ancestral Sources, I gave it a go and didn't like how it seemed to put the information in. I will give it another go (always open to making my life easier) as I am sure that it can be tweaked to do what I want, it was more that I didn't want to learn another thing while I was still learning FH. I have one thing to ask anyone who uses AS, do you still use it as much once you have input the biggest chunk of your tree. By that I mean once you are getting to the point FH is only getting one or two entries rather than the lots and lots that generally get added when you first start your tree. I would think that if I was just entering the information for say a wedding certificate, I would be quite happy to use Auto Source Citations (I think). But then again maybe AS is the way to go and once I get used to it I won't move away from it.
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Re: Source help

Postby tatewise » 18 May 2019 13:13

Auto Source Citations does what it says on the tin. See Automatic Source Citation Pane FH Help page.
Every new item added or modified is given the currently chosen Source Citation.
So if you add a new Individual record that gets a <whole record> citation.
If you add that Individual as a Spouse or Child then the new Family record gets a <whole record> citation.
Adding a Name or a Fact adds a Source Citation to them.

AS has several benefits and they do not diminish much as your research proceeds.
It simplifies the often tediously repetitive process of adding several related Facts with the same Source Citation.
It offers options such as choosing whether new records &/or Names get Source Citation or not.
It has templates to format the titles and other components of Source and Media records, and Media filenames.
That is particularly useful as your research proceeds, because you don't have to remember those formats from year to year.

Before you tried AS did you undertake its tutorials at Knowledge Base > Ancestral Sources > User Guide that explore most of those features?
However, it is important to understand how FH records its data, so that you appreciate how AS enhances the process.
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Re: Source help

Postby ColeValleyGirl » 18 May 2019 13:22

I always use AS for the source types it supports (BBMDB) -- quicker and less error prone. It isn't perfect for my needs (around the specification of sources) but I can work around the shortcomings so I wouldn't use anything else. I have also tweaked the Text from Source Templates to suit my preferred methods of working...

What do you need to achieve that you couldn't with AS? I'm very happy to go into more detail if it would help.

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Re: Source help

Postby WilliamFrier » 18 May 2019 15:33

Helen, I will reinstall AS and get back to you.

While I am picking all of your collective brains, is there a way to change the Sentence FH produces in the Facts tab. The part I really want to change is 'On 29th Aug 1887 he lived in Hamilton, Scotland' to 'On 29th Aug 1887 he lived in George Court, Hamilton, Scotland'. I put Hamilton, Scotland in the place box and George Court in the Address box (Seems logical to me), but when I add {Address} before {Place} into the sentence I end up with 'On 29th Aug 1887 he lived George Court in Hamilton, Scotland' is it quite easy to move IN in the sentence so that it reads 'he lived in George Court, Hamilton, Scotland. I could even live with 'He lived in George Court in Hamilton, Scotland'. I ask this as some of the peeps in my tree have stayed in many places and had lots of events in the one town and when FH puts it all together there are in this instance He stayed in Hamilton and was married in Hamilton and then he stayed in Hamilton and then he stayed in Hamilton again, I think it would be so much better if the address was added giving a better feeling of where he had stayed in the area and what church he was married in rather than just the town.

I hope I have described what I am trying to achieve okay and also hope it can be achieved at the root level and always be in place for every entry and not have to be adjusted for every entry. As I said I am redoing my tree, so adjusting as I enter individuals and events in their lives would just be time as I go along. Not trying to go through a whole tree and change everything that had already been entered as it would have been if FTM had been a bit more compliant when I exported/imported my tree.
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Re: Source help

Postby LornaCraig » 18 May 2019 16:05

To edit any sentence template globally, use Tools>Fact Types. Select the fact in question, then click Edit on the right. For the residence fact, you would need
{date} {individual} lived <at {address}, >{place}
Personally I prefer 'at' rather than 'in' as a prefix to the address. This seems better when there is a house number, e.g. 'at 25 High Street' although not so good if you have only a street name. The angle brackets ensure that the 'at' prefix and the comma don't appear if you have no address but only a place.
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Re: Source help

Postby tatewise » 18 May 2019 17:11

Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Source help

Postby WilliamFrier » 21 May 2019 09:30

ColeValleyGirl wrote:What do you need to achieve that you couldn't with AS? I'm very happy to go into more detail if it would help.


I just tried AS again, I made a new tree so as not to make a mess of my own and went in to options and ticked pretty much everything to be added just to see how it input data. I put in 12 separate sources and it worked quite well, but 3 of those sources included me (Birth, Marriage and daughters birth) and at no point did AS add a citation for my name. It also auto added text to the source that saved having to add it myself (Quite cool) I then read through it afterwards and noticed that it presumed that as I was born in Bellshill maternity hospital (not my home town) that my birth would be registered in Bellshill. Not a problem I thought so I made the change and a few others while I was having a look through the tree and after clicking okay to a pop up that appeared AS changed back the information in the source (seems to have changed after 3rd attempt). AS also added me as informant to my daughters birth and as the very large town where we live has no maternity unit almost all children are not born here and to cap it off are registered in another different town as they have closed the register office (Thank goodness for government cuts). As there is no way that I can see in AS to change where the registration takes place it has added Bellshill again as the place of registration another change required. So at the moment I think that I will just stay with ASC or doing it individually, that way I (hopefully) don't have to check everything that is added and hope any changes made stay made.

While I am here, I have a question for everyone about a few baptisms I have added, which I have found written by the minister who carried them out on the rear of some relatives Birth Certificates. I know it is subjective and some peeps will be different to others but would like your advice. When I add the source I add it as "Baptism: Name" then here's my dilemma when I put in Type do I add it as Baptism or Birth Certificate. I have a certificate for my baptism/christening so that type is obvious but these others not so. Types I use are Birth Certificate, Marriage Cert. Death cert etc and know I should probably have missed out Certificate on the types and I would not be asking this question but hey ho it's done now. For this I am blaming Jane as I followed her 'how to' video on entering info and she added certificates to the type on that and I just followed as I never really thought about this sort of thing coming up.
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Re: Source help

Postby ColeValleyGirl » 21 May 2019 10:11

When I add the source I add it as "Baptism: Name" then here's my dilemma when I put in Type do I add it as Baptism or Birth Certificate.


I'd say you're dealing with two sources: the Birth Certificate (one side of the document) and the Baptism Certificate (on the other side).

no point did AS add a citation for my name


In AS's General Settings what have you selected for 'Create Name Citations'?

auto added text to the source that saved


You have to press the Auto button to get this to happen, and it's always advisable to review it (and often) tweak it before saving -- it can only make a best guess based on the information you've entered from the source -- this included typing in the actual place of registration (as AS doesn't ask for it, just makes an assumption based on the place of birth). You may find editing the Auto text templates lets you get things closer to the way you prefer to work. For example, my template for Birth certificate looks like this:

Code: Select all

CERTIFIED COPY OF AN ENTRY OF BIRTH GIVEN AT THE GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE

Registration district -
{YEAR} Birth in the sub-district of - in the County of -

No.   |When and where born   |Name if any   |Sex   |Name and surname of father   |Name surname and maiden surname of mother   |Occupation of father   |Signature description and residence of informant   |When registered
{REF}   |{DATE} =IF[{ADDR}|{ADDR}, |]{PLACE.SHORT}   |{KEYPERSON.GN}   |=TITLE[{KEYPERSON.GENDER.BOYGIRL}]   |=IF[=EQUALSNOT[{KEYFATHER.FULL}|<No Name>]|{KEYFATHER.FULL}|]   |=IF[=EQUALSNOT[{KEYFATHER.FULL}|<No Name>]|{KEYMOTHER.GN} {KEYFATHER.SN} formerly {KEYMOTHER.SN}|{KEYMOTHER.FULL}]   |{KEYFATHER.OCCUPATION}   |=IF[=AND[{INFORMANT.JUSTNAME}|=EQUALS[{INFORMANT.IDENTITY}|OTHER]]| {INFORMANT.JUSTNAME}| =IF[=EQUALS[{INFORMANT.IDENTITY}|MOTHER]|=IF[=EQUALSNOT[{KEYFATHER.FULL}|<No Name>]|{KEYMOTHER.GN} {KEYFATHER.SN}|{INFORMANT.FULL}]|{INFORMANT.FULL}]] {INFORMANT.DESCRIPTION} =IF[{INFORMANT.RESIDENCE.ADDRESS}|{INFORMANT.RESIDENCE.ADDRESS}, |]{INFORMANT.RESIDENCE.PLACE.SHORT}   |{DATEREGISTERED}


and the uncompleted result looks like:

Code: Select all

CERTIFIED COPY OF AN ENTRY OF BIRTH GIVEN AT THE GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE

Registration district -
 Birth in the sub-district of - in the County of -

No.   |When and where born   |Name if any   |Sex   |Name and surname of father   |Name surname and maiden surname of mother   |Occupation of father   |Signature description and residence of informant   |When registered
   |    |   |   |   |   |   |      |


So I have to type in the REgsitration district and subdistrict manually, rather than let SS make assumptions.

(The | lets me lay the source text out in tables in the tool I use for website generation)

You also need to remember that AS detects when changes have been made within FH (including autosaving when you have made no actual changes) and the popup you confirmed was to reload the Gedcom. As the data in AS should only be based on the Source you're working with, not anything that you have recorded elsewhere, why did you need to refer to FH in the middle of recording an event in AS?

AS also added me as informant to my daughters birth


It will only do this is you explicitly tell it that you were the informant (on the Registration tab) -- are you sure you didn't do this? Or do you mean it added you as a Witness within FH -- you can turn that off (Tools > Options > Birth Settings and untick the Informant box where it tells AS to create a witness role).


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