*Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

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victor
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Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby victor » 08 Oct 2018 16:57

This is prompted by the Customize Property Box puzzle (16298) posting.
I know we are talking about the Electoral Roll or Registry.
Those of 1939 are really a National Registry listing people due to the war.
The addresses shown are not very accurate. My parents are listed as living in Hull when they had moved to Hessle before 1939.
No matter.
Question is should we describe this as Electoral Roll or the accurate name of National Registry.
Many names shown are blanked out due to 'living persons' I have one name where the named person is alive and well.
The list appears to be different on FMP compared to Ancestry. I am on Ancestry and posted a page on Facebook. Someone on Facebook who subscribes to FMP showed names which were not blanked out compared to my copy.
Does anyone know who actually blanks out the names FMP, Ancestry or the National Archives?
Victor

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby tatewise » 08 Oct 2018 17:31

The 29 September 1939 Register was initially taken due to the onset of war with the purpose of producing National Identity Cards, the register later came to be multi-functional, first as an aid in the use of ration books and later helping officials record the movement of the civilian population over the following decades and from 1948, as the basis for the National Health Service Register. In many ways it was a national census, and was based on the planned 1941 Census.

That is quite different from Electoral Rolls to register the electorate for local and national elections.
These exclude under-age children, and in earlier times exclude women, i.e. anyone not allowed to vote.

It is not clear which organisations are in charge of redactions, but I thought it was the TNA.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history.

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby davidm_uk » 08 Oct 2018 17:49

Quote from Ancestry web page:

"Redactions
Images have been redacted to protect the privacy of those still alive and we will be annually adding records for those with birth dates older than 100 years or if a record of the death has been reported to The National Archives. Images will also be updated to reflect the opening of the record. All indexes have been created from redacted images as provided by The National Archives and as such, some indexes may not include all information as originally recorded, where it is obscured from view.
"

There's some more explanatory blurb on the TNA web site, but basically it says you can apply for an entry to be unredacted, but you have to provide a copy of a death certificate and it costs you ££££s. I wish they wouldn't redact the street name though, when the rest of the entries on the page are just "ditto"!

Ancestry just take periodic update from TNA, either quarterly or annually, I'm not sure which.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby tatewise » 08 Oct 2018 18:12

FMP says something similar.
Any differences in redactions may be down to when Ancestry and FMP update their records from TNA.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby Gowermick » 08 Oct 2018 18:18

Victor,
The 1939 Register lists people where they slept on the night of 29th September. Although your parents may have moved to Hessle before then, on that night they were where the Register has them. You may not know the circumstances, but they could be on holiday or visiting relatives or friends etc.

The Register, (like Censuses) does not imply that this is where they normally lived, and is unlikely to be incorrect, just because you know they lived elsewhere.

For information, I tend to regard the Register as yet another Census, and treat it the same way as any other census. This is different to the way I treat electoral rolls, which I enter as a Residence fact(s), using the electoral roll as the source.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby victor » 08 Oct 2018 22:33

Thanks for your input Mike
I do know what happened to my parents.
Before the war they lived above a shop where my father was manager. He signed up for service and wanted to pass the manager's job to my mother so they could continue to live above the shop. This was rejected so the whole family had to move out.
They found a house in Hessle paying £1 a week rent. I know this was the rental cost because I have the letter about it.

My father joined the RAF where they had barrage balloons in Hull. He was too old for active service. The family consisted of my parents, his children from his first marriage and my mother's children. This was before I was born.
I have the register details of the road where they moved to and it listed the previous people who lived in the house my parents moved into. After the war they bought the house and lived there til 1984 when my father died
Apologies for going a bit off topic here.

I plan to visit Kew and see if I can look at this National Register.

Victor

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby StevieSteve » 08 Oct 2018 22:56

According to TNA, they don't have the originals, it's NHS Digital

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby dewilkinson » 09 Oct 2018 08:14

Regarding your point about what to call this. Although it is technically a 'Register' I decided I would record details as a 'Census' Fact as this is what it is closest/akin to.

Regarding addresses, transcriptions give the Road and Borough Council (which is mis-leading), so it is sometimes helpful to look at the map on FMP and/or Google map it to find the actual location. I also find it helpful to look other nearby road names to confirm they are also where I think the actual place was. Also the free old map site https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/ can be helpful. All part of genealogical challenges.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby E Wilcock » 09 Oct 2018 08:44

Correct. The Register has nothing to do with the National Archive and it may be complicated or even impossible to view additional notes cropped from the right, as I enquired on behalf of a researcher in the USA.
It includes information presumably updated when the NHS was established, e.g. the married names of women who married subsequently to 1939.

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby tatewise » 09 Oct 2018 09:36

There is a good summary of the England & Wales 1939 Register at 1939 Register - The National Archives.

It says the original register books have been retained by the Health and Social Care Information Centre, now called NHS Digital.

When preparing the Register, the General Register Office used the plans already in place for what would have been the 1941 Census, so it is unlikely that the address of anyone for 29 September 1939 would be incorrect. The enumerator's would have checked that, just as for a National Census.

So Victor, perhaps the date your family actually moved to Hessle is later than you think. Maybe, despite the letter about rental, their move was delayed until after September 1939?

As David says, it is advisable to record the 1939 Register as a Census Event in FH, because it was a census in all but name, and several tools benefit from it being recorded as a Census Event. One significant distinction is that the 1939 Register was NOT carried out under the UK National Census legislation, so is not bound by the 100-year census closure policy, but it is bound by the Data Protection Act/Regulations which demand that living person's details are redacted.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history.

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby brianlummis » 09 Oct 2018 10:52

I do know what happened to my parents.
Before the war they lived above a shop where my father was manager. He signed up for service and wanted to pass the manager's job to my mother so they could continue to live above the shop. This was rejected so the whole family had to move out.
They found a house in Hessle paying £1 a week rent. I know this was the rental cost because I have the letter about it.

Have you made an address search in the 1939 Register for the address in Hessle to see who was occupying the property in September 1939?


EDIT - Oops, just seen Mike's next post - should have gone to Specsavers :oops:
Last edited by brianlummis on 09 Oct 2018 16:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby tatewise » 09 Oct 2018 11:36

Brian, in the next paragraph Victor says he did that:
"I have the register details of the road where they moved to and it listed the previous people who lived in the house my parents moved into."
That is why I said they must have moved later than Victor thinks.
It might satisfy all our curiosities if Victor could provide his evidence for them moving before 29 Sept 1939.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history.

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby AdrianBruce » 09 Oct 2018 16:17

tatewise wrote:... Any differences in redactions may be down to when Ancestry and FMP update their records from TNA.


Working from fallible memory, my understanding is:
  • FMP are TNA's contractors for the imaging and digitisation on the Register (for England & Wales). Therefore the actual un-redaction (removal of bars from images) will be done by FMP staff.
  • FMP subscribers contact FMP to request un-redaction. Others contact TNA who, I believe, will simply forward the requests to FMP's staff.
  • Un-redaction can also be done by FMP running utilities that mark up people as born over 100y ago (so are assumed to be deceased for these purposes) or who can be definitely matched to GRO Death Indexes. I have no idea how often these runs are done.)
  • All this means that there are 2 sets of images of the Register held by FMP - the clean, un-redacted version and the redacted version(s). Though whether the 2nd set are simple JPGs or overlays for the un-redacted, I have no idea.
  • Difficult to tell but my impression is that Ancestry bought a copy of the redacted images (they would not be permitted access to anything else) and have digitised and indexed that.
  • Speculation: Ancestry's commitment to update will therefore be obtaining a new set of slightly less redacted images from FMP. Not sure how often but I would not be surprised if we're talking annually, whereas FMP, having the raw materials, as it were, can be faster with their un-redactions. Probably.

As has been stated above, the carbon-based pages remain with NHS Digital - what TNA have, I have no idea. It was represented as a digital accession and TNA references apply but whether the Register images are on any server at TNA, I can't guess. I suspect that anyone wanting to access it will be directed to the free FMP screens at Kew. That would be the only way to sensibly apply all the data protection rules.

Nor do I understand if FMP's images of the Register include the elusive but probably exceedingly boring remainder of the right hand page.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby gwilym'smum » 09 Oct 2018 16:30

Going back to what David said about addresses being misleading. I totally agree. Stoke on Trent is a nightmare. The whole is 17 miles long but made up of 6 towns with lots of villages. All are listed as Stoke on Trent and there are the same name for streets appearing in most of them. Unfortunately you just have to know if they came from Tunstall or Fenton or any other in between! :?
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby ColeValleyGirl » 09 Oct 2018 16:46

AdrianBruce wrote:Working from fallible memory, my understanding is:


Adrian, who gave you access to my fallible memory! I agree completely -- Findmypast are acting as TNA's agent to manage the redaction (or sometimes the re-redaction) of records.

Re the right hand page, TNA says

Each entry in the Register extended across a double page spread. However, the accessioned digital record does not include the ‘postings’ column on the right hand page which contains various codes used for National Registration and National Health Service purposes. The National Archives does not have access to this column and the information it contains.


so it sounds as if FMP will not have this (and that it is probably very boring... unless the NHS was in the business ofrecording NFN (Normal For Norfolk) and other such codes against individuals. (Apologies to anyone from/living in Norfolk).

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby Gowermick » 09 Oct 2018 17:39

Whilst the right hand page may be ‘boring’, it does add a bit of colour to ones ancestors. Whilst most may be so, to read that someone was the local ARP Warden, gives a little insight into what was going on at the time, and far from ‘boring’. IMHO. :D
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby tatewise » 09 Oct 2018 18:00

FMP can be exceedingly slow at updating their data that is available to subscribers.
I had cause to correct some FMP transcriptions, and although one department claimed to have applied the corrections, after further investigation it became clear that an entirely separate department is responsible for collating the web pages to include online for subscribers to view, and that process can take months for an updated page to get included, because they appear to need to wait until a batch of related updates is required.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby ColeValleyGirl » 09 Oct 2018 18:33

Gowermick wrote:Whilst the right hand page may be ‘boring’, it does add a bit of colour to ones ancestors. Whilst most may be so, to read that someone was the local ARP Warden, gives a little insight into what was going on at the time, and far from ‘boring’.


FMP shows that info, but not the 'postings'.

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby LornaCraig » 09 Oct 2018 18:43

Yes, there are certainly different departments involved at FMP and they don't seem to talk to each other. I submitted the necessary information to get my mother's entry un-redacted. This included her full name and date of birth. Yet when the un-redacted version appeared her forename and date of birth had both been wrongly transcribed!!

To add to the confusion, on this particular page the black bars covering the redacted entries are all offset by about half a line's width, so each black bar actually covers the lower half of the line above it, effectively obscuring most of the writing on that line, while in some cases revealing information below it which it is supposed to be hiding. My mother's supposedly unredacted line is still half obscured. So the FMP department which transcribed her name (wrongly, as it happens) must have been looking at the full unredacted page or they wouldn't have seen enough to transcribe anything at all. Ancestry presumably only have access to the redacted image, and because the line is half obscured they haven't got my mother indexed at all.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby AdrianBruce » 09 Oct 2018 19:12

LornaCraig wrote:... So the FMP department which transcribed her name (wrongly, as it happens) must have been looking at the full unredacted page or they wouldn't have seen enough to transcribe anything at all. ...


I'm not sure how much of this is knowledge on my part, and how much deduction because, "It must work like that ...", but my understanding is that the full, unredacted page was always transcribed (but only with one column visible at a time) - then the redaction process kicked in to remove stuff from view. But all the dates of birth must be indexed in order for the un-redaction process to occur after 100y have elapsed since the (recorded) date of birth. So I reckon everything must be there.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby LornaCraig » 09 Oct 2018 19:28

Yes, I did think maybe the transcription had taken place right at the start before any redactions. But the information I submitted about her name and date of birth didn't match their transcription, yet they un-redacted the line anyway without bothering to correct the transcription! I think they need a bit more joined-up thinking at FMP.
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby AdrianBruce » 10 Oct 2018 20:35

LornaCraig wrote:... I think they need a bit more joined-up thinking at FMP.

;)
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby victor » 10 Oct 2018 21:27

This has been an nformative thread
I will contact my sister tomorrow to ask her when the family moved to Hessle.

I have discussed this Register on Facebook. One lady said she contacted FMP about her father as his name had been blanked out.
She said she reported his death to FMP and they charged her £30! Her father had died recently and she had his death certificate

Another said he sent FMP a copy of the death certificate and they didn't charge him!

Looks as if different members of FMP staff have different ideas

Victor

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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby Gowermick » 11 Oct 2018 05:07

My only comment to that, is more fool them! If FMP tried to charge me to correct their database, I’d tell them to stick it where the sun don’t shine. I know they are in business to make money, but come on, at the end of the day we are helping them provide more accurate records, if anything they should be paying us, for doing their work for them!
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Re: Census, 1939 Register, Electoral Roll

Postby jbtapscott » 11 Oct 2018 05:32

I would respectfully suggest that this was not a case of correcting the database but updating it!.

Whichever, the TNA website states "....Findmypast.co.uk subscribers can request a check of the closed records free of charge and if successful, the record will be made available via the online service. Please note in order to access this service you will be required to provide proof of death, mostly commonly by providing a death certificate.

Non-Findmypast.co.uk subscribers should use The National Archives Freedom of Information (FOI) request form to request a search of closed records from the 1939 Register. If the record can be opened, we will send you a full transcription of the information held in the record. The opened record will be available to view on Findmypast.co.uk ten working days after the notification of a successful request. Please note there is a fixed charge of £23.35 for this service...."
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