* TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

[OlivierM]

Dear Mike,

for once , I do not agree.

I think the way the TNG screens are conceived, it is unambiguous that "baptism godfather" means Main Person of page is the godfather of "Nicolas Reding"

Like here.

I find the word "Principal" also ambiguous It is in fact the object of the event, while one could think it is the subject...

If you keep "principal", may I please ask you to add a ":" to it: "principal :"

Or, maybe you can make it optional like the "witness role" in "Label Set A"

And again, thank you for your continuous support.

image.png (70.09 KiB) Viewed 814 times

[tatewise]

Adding a colon (:) to Principal would also require adding a colon to all the Witness Roles to be consistent.
I think there should be no problem with that.

It should also be possible to add Principal as a label to the Labels Set A/B tabs so it can be changed.
However, remember that pseudo-role Principal only appears alone with the Move to Fact Note Min option.
With the Move to Fact Note Max option it appears at the top of a list of real Witness Roles and if the label is changed or removed it may look rather unusual.

What do others think?

Has anyone apart from Olivier run the Version 5.5.3 plugin and tried to upset it with unusual data or settings?

[OlivierM]

I never focused a lot on the "max" option. I did now.

Here you have 3 views of the same witness:

1. one with the min setting:

2. one with the std or max setting, without role label

3. and one with the max setting, with role label:

(note that each time another tree ID was defined)

IMHO, option 3 does not add anything.
The difference between min and max is huge: it does add the links to the related related note, the related media and the related source. This is very much in line with the TNG logic.
But is is a bit cluttered and sometimes inconsistent
:

My preferred option would be option 2, because it offers the maximal information.

but I would define the principal as the attribute of the tags (and the other witnesses in the note field) like in the following example:

(and some minor changes like replacing Family by Marriage)

image.png (65.97 KiB) Viewed 748 times

To be compared with

image.png (91.56 KiB) Viewed 748 times

(My apologies for the FR/EN mix and some inconsistencies)

[tatewise]

The difference between min and max is huge: it does add the links to the related note, the related media and the related source. This is very much in line with the TNG logic.
But it is a bit cluttered and sometimes inconsistent.

My preferred option would be option 2, because it offers the maximal information.

Yes, I have been saying that all along but you were keen to reduce the details.
Even with the min option all the details given by the max option are provided against the Principal fact.
So you just have to click on the Principal hyperlink and find the Principal fact that lists all those details.
Your preference for the Max option seems to reverse all your recent ideas for minimising the display.
Can I now remove the Min option and just have the Max option which is where we started?

but I would define the principal as the attribute of the tags (and the other witnesses in the note field)

It is not, in general, feasible to define the principal as the attribute value of the fact.
It is incompatible with Attribute facts that already have an Attribute value.


I would like to see comments from Adrian Cook and John Clifford before making any significant changes.

[OlivierM]

The difference between min and max is huge: it does add the links to the related note, the related media and the related source. This is very much in line with the TNG logic.
But it is a bit cluttered and sometimes inconsistent.

Your preference for the Max option seems to reverse all your recent ideas for minimising the display.
Can I now remove the Min option and just have the Max option which is where we started?

I would prefer to maintain the "min" option, as well as the "max", if that is not too much a problem for you.
Both have their advantages, I like the readability of the (min) option and the information (sources, media and notes of the (max) option. The best of the two worlds would be the (min) option + the media +the sources. But if I have to choose between the two now, I would go for the (min) option.

I published all these examples to show that the header record system works perfectly, and to allow Adrian and John, and others to make up their mind, and I would love to hear their opinion, also.

Have a nice evening !

[ADC65]

Sorry for my tardiness Mike. I will test today and reply by this evening at the latest.

[tatewise]

Olivier, did you see my point that clicking on the Principal hyperlink shows the full details on the Principal fact?

The objective of the min option expressed by several users was to minimise the vertical space on the page so it is similar to the Associated Person method being used before. Including Sources and especially Media on the Witness fact in min mode counteracts that objective.

If you want all that detail on the Witness fact as well as the Principal fact then use the max option.
In many cases, the extra lines to list all the Witness Roles will be small compared to the Media space.

Is anyone still interested in the ability to change of remove the Principal: label?

[jclifford]

I have not followed all the details of this thread recently, being happy with version 5.5.2 of the plugin.

But I have now tried version 5.5.3 using the same (Min) settings and found that I have lost all my witness-principal hyperlinks.

Incidentally, the plugin does not ask me or tell me anything about trees, which is OK because I use the Import procedure in TNG.

[ADC65]

I'm a bit confused - I have tried both MAX and MIN options but neither produces any hyperlinks. Do I need to change another setting as well?

In the exported GEDCOM, the line that appears is

Code: Select all

1 EVEN
2 TYPE Marriage Witness
2 NOTE Witness Role:	Principal	 [F12]	...of (Redacted) COOK and (Redacted) RICHARDS

(My redactions).

This appears successfully in TNG, but without any hyperlinks, obviously.

[tatewise]

Adrian and John, it appears you did not see the instructions in the posting with V5.5.3 attached:
It requires the Header record Receiving System field to specify the TNG Tree ID using the format:
TNG:tree2 alternatives allowed include TNG=tree2 or TNG: tree2 or TNG = tree2
If the Max or Min options are chosen, then it will use the TNG hyperlink Tree ID format as agreed earlier.
If not defined then the plugin reverts to using the textual [RecId] Name display format.

V5.5.2 did not allow the TNG Tree ID to be specified but always used tree1.

Have you any thoughts on the other suggestions discussed with Olivier?

[ADC65]

Apologies, I did miss that. I've just corrected and uploading, and will have feedback shortly.

[ADC65]

OK, I have some initial feedback. I may have more later after I have had time to think more about certain elements.

Firstly, though, thank you Mike for supporting this as it makes a huge difference to the quality of data held and displayed in TNG. It's a great step up from the current abilities for witnesses.

• There is a slight problem in the tree ID. I entered the data as instructed in the right place: "TNG:ADC-TREE", but the URLs only contain "TNG:ADC", i.e., they miss out the "-TREE" at the end. I replaced these manually and they then worked fine. I know the current TNG advice is "Do not include non-alphanumeric characters (stick to numbers and letters), and do not use spaces", however this was not always the advice and my tree name predates it. In fact, it is not an actual restriction anyway as the database tables allow any character. I am happy to change my tree ID so no big deal, but something maybe to be aware of. (Tree IDs can't actually be changed, the tree needs to be deleted and re-created.)

• I tried the MIN and MAX modes separately. The MAX mode was too verbose for me, so I will not comment further on it, as I would not use it on my tree. There was nothing wrong with it as far as I could see, but I much preferred the MIN version.

• I would prefer a colon and space after the witness role detail, e.g., "Principal: ", "Witness: ", "Bridesmaid: ", "Best man: ", etc.

• I would prefer the word "Marriage" instead of "Family" in the hyperlink.

• I don't have strong feelings about using the word "Principal" in the detail, however I have not thought what the alternatives would be, could you elaborate the options please?

• This is really for reference, as I will have to have a think about how I manage witnesses more carefully in FH now. Currently, at a marriage, I can have the same person listed as a witness twice - once as an actual witness to the event (signed the certificate) and also as a best man. I've probably got other similar duplicates that I haven't thought about yet. When these appear in the witness's page, they look identical (see below), but in the principal's page they are listed correctly. I don't think the plugin can do anything about that, it is something I will need to think about.
  
  

  

  Screenshot 2023-12-06 150657.png (47.46 KiB) Viewed 648 times

• Some witnessed events have dates next to them, and others do not - I'm not sure why as the events themselves are dated. I am not sure which is correct - with dates or without them? See above image.

• Some witnessed events are grouping (see image above where Marriage Witness has a number of different events grouped into one box, however other witnessed events are being split up (see the image below). I have not thought much about why this is happening and whether it can be changed, or whether it is in TNG or the plugin that any change, if possible, would need to be made.
  
  

  

  Screenshot 2023-12-06 150959.png (36.01 KiB) Viewed 648 times

  
  I will look more deeply later tonight.

[jclifford]

The reasons that I have not used the Header record Receiving System field are

A. I don't know what it means

B. I cannot find it in the plug-in settings screen (only Header Submitter 1 on the Other Options tab)

I now realise that I was using one family from my main tree uploaded as tree3 to test the plug-in versions, but the hyperlinks in it were leading to the same records in tree1.

[OlivierM]

Olivier, did you see my point that clicking on the Principal hyperlink shows the full details on the Principal fact?

The objective of the min option expressed by several users was to minimise the vertical space on the page so it is similar to the Associated Person method being used before. Including Sources and especially Media on the Witness fact in min mode counteracts that objective.

If you want all that detail on the Witness fact as well as the Principal fact then use the max option.
In many cases, the extra lines to list all the Witness Roles will be small compared to the Media space.

Is anyone still interested in the ability to change of remove the Principal: label?

Yes , Mike I saw it, and I was aware of it. And I agree that adding sources and media in the min mode counteracts that objective.

So my only remaining request now is to make the "principal" label optional like the "witness role". Of course I can also delete it in the Gedcom file, but it is a manipulation more, that always implies the risk to delete a word somewhere in a note where you don't want to delete it.

[ADC65]

The reasons that I have not used the Header record Receiving System field are

A. I don't know what it means

You set it in Family Historian. From the top menu, choose View > Special Records > Header Record. The Header Record will be displayed and you can add the tree name into the "Receiving System" field. Use the format "TNG:treeID", where treeID is the ID of your TNG tree. See my screenshot below. Remember to save your file. The Export plugin will then add the hyperlinks to the tree you have named in that field.

Screenshot 2023-12-06 184500.png (7.62 KiB) Viewed 619 times

[ADC65]

So my only remaining request now is to make the "principal" label optional like the "witness role". Of course I can also delete it in the Gedcom file, but it is a manipulation more, that always implies the risk to delete a word somewhere in a note where you don't want to delete it.

I've been trying to think about the best way to describe these fields. I've taken an example from your site, I hope you don't mind.

Screenshot 2023-12-06 185124.png (31.74 KiB) Viewed 618 times

The record here is for Gertrude Klein. There are no dates of birth or other clues as to what era she was born, etc. There is a field that reads "Birth Godmother". Is this her? Is this her Godmother? The detail says "Principal Nicolas Reding", but imagine that field had a female name instead. Who is who, and what field names could help? Clicking on Nicolas will tell us that Gertrude is his Godmother (when you find it), but is it possible to have provided that information on Gertrude's page?

In the context of someone reading Gertrude's page, that has not the knowledge that we have of the exported data, there's a lot of clicking around. In pages where someone has been a witness to a lot of events (marriages, say), this could be muddled.

I'm not sure there is a simple answer - I'm really just raising the question.

[OlivierM]

So my only remaining request now is to make the "principal" label optional like the "witness role". Of course I can also delete it in the Gedcom file, but it is a manipulation more, that always implies the risk to delete a word somewhere in a note where you don't want to delete it.

In the context of someone reading Gertrude's page, that has not the knowledge that we have of the exported data, there's a lot of clicking around. In pages where someone has been a witness to a lot of events (marriages, say), this could be muddled.

I'm not sure there is a simple answer - I'm really just raising the question.

Thank you Adrian,

I agree that the event display "birth godmother" is not obvious. That is why I intend to modify (in TNG) the event text displays "Birth Godmother" and "Baptism Godmother" by "Godmother of".
(I could specify "Birth godmother" of or "Baptism Godmother of" but I do not consider it is necessary).

Here you see the modified example:

image.png (32.19 KiB) Viewed 609 times

https://tng.neptis.be/getperson.php?per ... e=branch11

And this, for me , is unambiguous. Anyhow, I consider - but that is my opinion - that the preposition "principal" does not add anything to it. And in this specific case, I agree, I don't know anything about Gerrude Klein except that she was the Godmother of Nicolas Reding.

The definition of the event text display is an easy operation, that you can do once and forever in the Menu ""Event / Attribute Types >> Edit Existing Type" of TNG

And a final element to take into account is that the word "principal" is not translated when you change the display language of the TNG page . The event text display IS translated (if you edited the event text display in the different languages.

For someone not familiar with the features of TNG, this is how you define the display of an event in TNG:

image.png (59.18 KiB) Viewed 607 times

[ADC65]

Thank you Olivier, this is a very elegant solution and I will try to get it working on my site.

I agree that with this in mind, it would be a useful option to be able to suppress the "Principal" within the Export Gedcom File plugin.

[ADC65]

Further investigation has thrown up one reason for potential problems with the Principal witness section.

Screenshot 2023-12-06 232846.png (16.06 KiB) Viewed 573 times

In the screenshot above, you can see that Winston Arthur PHIPPS appears to have witnessed the same marriage twice. What is happening is that he is listed in FH as a witness twice, but with different roles. If you look at the marriage itself, shown below, these role appear correctly.

Screenshot 2023-12-06 233240.png (14.79 KiB) Viewed 573 times

So I think that these roles should appear in Winston's listing in the same way - i.e., Marriage Witness and Marriage Best man - and then the actual text can be controlled within TNG.

EDIT: I suspect that the problem is caused by being listed as a witness at the same event twice but in different roles. I have found someone that was a Bridesmaid at a wedding and is listed as such, but at a different wedding she is listed as Marriage Witness twice, even though her roles are Witness and Bridesmaid.

Also, I have not been able to determine why some dates appear and some do not. For example, in the first screenshot above, you can see a date for a Burial Mourner witness, but for neither of the Marriage witnesses.

[jclifford]

Thank you Adrian:

You set it in Family Historian. From the top menu, choose View > Special Records > Header Record.

I have now got plugin 5.5.3 working and am very happy with the results.

And thanks to Mike for spending so long on this topic.

[tatewise]

Here I hope to deal with all the recently raised issues, which illustrate the wrinkles introduced by a new option!

1. TNG Tree ID
   The plugin assumed the TNG stated syntax of only alpha-numeric characters.
   I can easily change it to allow any characters except space. Is that OK?
   (The final plugin will have more obvious advice about setting the Header field.)
2. Witness Role Labels
   Ending the Role labels with a colon (:) seems popular so I will make that change.
   Customising the Principal: label seems popular so I will add that to the Labels Set A/B tabs.
   Then it could be translated to another language or eliminated altogether.
3. Witness Principal Family Label
   Adrian prefers the label Marriage to Family in the Principal hyperlinks.
   However, the hyperlink does not link to a Marriage event but to a Family record so I'm not keen.
   For other Witnessed Family Facts they might not be married and not even a couple (e.g. single parent).
   What do others think?
4. Witnessed Fact Displays
   FYI: In FH a Fact is only listed once per person however many Roles that person may have.
   If the Fact Principal also has a Fact Witness Role the principal Fact is still only listed once.
   If a person has multiple Witness Roles in one Fact it is only listed once for that person.
   The multiple Roles are revealed by opening the Witnesses list.
   • Copy to Fact Note Max Option
     In this case all the Witness Roles are listed in the Note so multiple Roles are evident.
     The recent change to append the Role to the Fact name has blurred things somewhat.
     The Fact and Note, Media, Sources, etc, are repeated for each Role, which is extremely verbose.
     Do others have an opinion or ideas?
   • Copy to Fact Note Min Option
     I agree that this new option does have a problem with multiple Roles.
     There appear to be two solutions:
     1. Create separate Facts that are appended with each of the Roles in turn.
     2. Append all the Roles to one Fact, e.g. Marriage Best Man & Witness & Photographer
        This would also work for the Copy to Fact Note Max option and is my preference.
     What do you think?
   • Witnessed Fact Clusters
     Adrian has posted two alternative Witnessed Fact pages:
     1. This clusters similar Facts under one heading but there are no boxes around the Date and Place which are separated by a hyphen.
     2. This has separate Fact headings and the Date and Place are inside boxes consistent with all of Olivier's screenshots.
     The plugin should produce separate Facts for each case, so can you check the GEDCOM file?
     Maybe some TNG settings are causing the clustered displays.
     For each Witnessed Fact, the Date and Place should be the same as the Principal Fact, and can easily be checked via the hyperlink.
     Please check what is in the GEDCOM for those Witnessed Facts.
     Are the Date and Place values missing?
5. Event / Attribute Types >> Edit Existing Type
   Olivier has explained how to use a TNG setting to adapt the Fact Type display to be more meaningful.
   That seems a better method than trying to get the plugin to adapt the displayed fact.
   The TNG option screenshot can be added to the plugin Help & Advice for TNG.
   Will it work for the multiple Role case b. above?

[jclifford]

I do not feel that I know enough about FH, or what is possible in the plugin, to make useful comments on Mike's last post.

I suspect I would be happy with any of the alternatives suggested.

[ADC65]

Here are some of my replies. I will work on the other ones later to see if it is a TNG fault in display, etc.

1. TNG Tree ID
   The plugin assumed the TNG stated syntax of only alpha-numeric characters.
   I can easily change it to allow any characters except space. Is that OK?
   (The final plugin will have more obvious advice about setting the Header field.)
   You might be better sticking to the TNG advice, and this would at least be consistent. I can change my tree ID. I can't imagine anyone using, for example, percentage signs in their tree ID, but you don't want those in the URL either. In fact, this would break TNG itself.
2. Witness Principal Family Label
   Adrian prefers the label Marriage to Family in the Principal hyperlinks.
   However, the hyperlink does not link to a Marriage event but to a Family record so I'm not keen.
   For other Witnessed Family Facts they might not be married and not even a couple (e.g. single parent).
   What do others think?
   I had not really thought about non-marriage Family events, where a Marriage label would be inappropriate, for example a Divorce. So I'm OK if you leave it as Family and I can change it manually if I prefer it.

[OlivierM]

Thank you Mike!

here my answers:

[*] TNG Tree ID
The plugin assumed the TNG stated syntax of only alpha-numeric characters.
I can easily change it to allow any characters except space. Is that OK?
(The final plugin will have more obvious advice about setting the Header field.)
Same opinion as Adrian: keep the TNG stated syntax, and do not allow other characters. (In fact TNg does not allow you to enter non alpha-numeric characters in a tree name, like *//= . TNG however accepts - and _ )

[*] Witness Role Labels
Ending the Role labels with a colon (:) seems popular so I will make that change.
Customising the Principal: label seems popular so I will add that to the Labels Set A/B tabs.
Then it could be translated to another language or eliminated altogether.
Of course I agree

[*] Witness Principal Family Label
Adrian prefers the label Marriage to Family in the Principal hyperlinks.
However, the hyperlink does not link to a Marriage event but to a Family record so I'm not keen.
For other Witnessed Family Facts they might not be married and not even a couple (e.g. single parent).
What do others think?
Same opinion as Adrian: I agree with Adrian, in the sense that I never was keen about linking to the Family altogether: to me it makes no sense to be "witness of a Family". This is why I proposed to drop the link to the Family and only put the link to the individual's . We agreed on displaying the Family AND the individuals . The word "Family" remains somehow strange Especially if once we will see "witness at the divorce of the family of John and Peter."
I propose to link to the individuals (IX + IY) with an arrow with a --> to the Familyreference as "FXX"
see last screencopy in this message

[*] Witnessed Fact Displays
FYI: In FH a Fact is only listed once per person however many Roles that person may have.
If the Fact Principal also has a Fact Witness Role the principal Fact is still only listed once.
If a person has multiple Witness Roles in one Fact it is only listed once for that person.
The multiple Roles are revealed by opening the Witnesses list.

• Copy to Fact Note Max Option
  In this case all the Witness Roles are listed in the Note so multiple Roles are evident.
  The recent change to append the Role to the Fact name has blurred things somewhat.
  The Fact and Note, Media, Sources, etc, are repeated for each Role, which is extremely verbose.
  Do others have an opinion or ideas?
• Copy to Fact Note Min Option
  I agree that this new option does have a problem with multiple Roles.
  There appear to be two solutions:
  1. Create separate Facts that are appended with each of the Roles in turn.
  2. Append all the Roles to one Fact, e.g. Marriage Best Man & Witness & Photographer
     This would also work for the Copy to Fact Note Max option and is my preference.
  What do you think?
  I agree with the last option: append them all. Otherways your separate facts will show too many redundant data like date and place.
• Witnessed Fact Clusters
  Adrian has posted two alternative Witnessed Fact pages:
  1. This clusters similar Facts under one heading but there are no boxes around the Date and Place which are separated by a hyphen.
  2. This has separate Fact headings and the Date and Place are inside boxes consistent with all of Olivier's screenshots.
  The plugin should produce separate Facts for each case, so can you check the GEDCOM file?
  Maybe some TNG settings are causing the clustered displays.
  For each Witnessed Fact, the Date and Place should be the same as the Principal Fact, and can easily be checked via the hyperlink.
  Please check what is in the GEDCOM for those Witnessed Facts.
  Are the Date and Place values missing?
  I have tried to replicate the clustering under one heading without boxes, but I could not. So I cannot give an advice on this.

[*] Event / Attribute Types >> Edit Existing Type
Olivier has explained how to use a TNG setting to adapt the Fact Type display to be more meaningful.
That seems a better method than trying to get the plugin to adapt the displayed fact.
The TNG option screenshot can be added to the plugin Help & Advice for TNG.
Will it work for the multiple Role case b. above?
I can not see how this would look like , so I have no clear opinion on this: would the clustered roles appear as one fact ?

image.png (21.33 KiB) Viewed 505 times

[/b]
Whatever the answer, I think the TNG event definition can cope with anything.

image.png (30.81 KiB) Viewed 505 times

[ADC65]

Some further observations, based on Olivier's feedback mainly.

Mike, do you think it would be possible to make these adjustments first, and then I can test whether this has an impact on the clustered/non-clustered displays? And also the dates. I have a feeling the two issues are related, and adjusting one may fix the other.

• Copy to Fact Note Max Option
  In this case all the Witness Roles are listed in the Note so multiple Roles are evident.
  The recent change to append the Role to the Fact name has blurred things somewhat.
  The Fact and Note, Media, Sources, etc, are repeated for each Role, which is extremely verbose.
  Do others have an opinion or ideas?
  No opinion from me as I have not examined the MAX option, and I would not use it. I'm not sure if someone specifically requested this format - if they did, they would be the best person for feedback.
• Copy to Fact Note Min Option
  I agree that this new option does have a problem with multiple Roles.
  There appear to be two solutions:
  1. Create separate Facts that are appended with each of the Roles in turn.
  2. Append all the Roles to one Fact, e.g. Marriage Best Man & Witness & Photographer
     This would also work for the Copy to Fact Note Max option and is my preference.
  What do you think?
  You and Olivier prefer the second option. I'm slightly conflicted about it, but on balance this probably makes sense and as mentioned, can be adjusted in TNG. Am I right to presume this will only change on the witness's page, and not on the event itself, which will still list the various roles separately? As per the image below.
  
  
  

  

  Screenshot 2023-12-06 233240.png (14.79 KiB) Viewed 479 times

• Witnessed Fact Clusters
  Adrian has posted two alternative Witnessed Fact pages:
  1. This clusters similar Facts under one heading but there are no boxes around the Date and Place which are separated by a hyphen.
  2. This has separate Fact headings and the Date and Place are inside boxes consistent with all of Olivier's screenshots.
  The plugin should produce separate Facts for each case, so can you check the GEDCOM file?
  Maybe some TNG settings are causing the clustered displays.
  For each Witnessed Fact, the Date and Place should be the same as the Principal Fact, and can easily be checked via the hyperlink.
  Please check what is in the GEDCOM for those Witnessed Facts.
  Are the Date and Place values missing?
  I will need to do more work on this. The Gedcom for the entry that has a date/hyphen/place is:

  Code: Select all

  1 EVEN
  2 TYPE Burial Mourner
  2 DATE 6 JAN 1936
  2 PLAC Bedwas, Monmouthshire, Wales
  2 NOTE Principal	 <a href="getperson.php?personID=I425&amp;tree=ADC-TREE">William Floyd PHIPPS</a>

  And the Gedcom for the entry that has date/place in a separate box (which is standard TNG) is:

  Code: Select all

  1 EVEN
  2 TYPE Burial Mourner
  2 DATE 6 JAN 1936
  2 PLAC Bedwas, Monmouthshire, Wales
  2 NOTE Principal	 <a href="getperson.php?personID=I425&amp;tree=ADC-TREE">William Floyd PHIPPS</a>

  Which both seem the same to me, so there may be a problem in TNG

[*] Event / Attribute Types >> Edit Existing Type
Olivier has explained how to use a TNG setting to adapt the Fact Type display to be more meaningful.
That seems a better method than trying to get the plugin to adapt the displayed fact.
The TNG option screenshot can be added to the plugin Help & Advice for TNG.
Will it work for the multiple Role case b. above?
Yes I think TNG should handle it, as per Olivier's instructions and I agree it's the best place to control this rather than the plugin
[/list]