* TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Thank you ColeValleyGirl for putting me straight and apologies to Mike and Olivier for misleading information.
Mike's export plug-in is likely to be used for additions and changes to existing trees as well as for populating new trees so I cannot see a way for him to always use an ID like "tree1" as part of hyperlinks created in a gedcom to be uploaded to TNG.
So a facility in the plug-in for the user to enter an ID looks (to me) like the only solution at present.
Mike's export plug-in is likely to be used for additions and changes to existing trees as well as for populating new trees so I cannot see a way for him to always use an ID like "tree1" as part of hyperlinks created in a gedcom to be uploaded to TNG.
So a facility in the plug-in for the user to enter an ID looks (to me) like the only solution at present.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Yes, I agree eventually, but for now, I am using tree1 for experimental plugin testing.
You can replace that with whatever Tree ID you wish by a global search and replace in the exported GEDCOM file that replaces tree=tree1 with tree=whatever.
The attached Export Gedcom File plugin Version 5.5.2 Date 30 Nov 2023 compressed ZIP file should produce the desired hyperlinks but only with TNG as GEDCOM Destination and only with Move to Fact Note Max/Min chosen.
It should produce Witness Role hyperlink Notes like:
Witness Role: Witness <a href="getperson.php?personID=I642&tree=tree1">[I642] John SMITH</a>
Witness Role: Principal <a href="familygroup.php?familyID=F7&tree=tree1">[F7] ...of John SMITH and Jane DOE</a>
Last edited by tatewise on 09 Dec 2023 17:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Attachment deleted as a better version is attachd later.
Reason: Attachment deleted as a better version is attachd later.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Hello Mike,
4 items could be improved , IMHO:
- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID,
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "witness role: Principal of XXX"
But whatever you decide to implement, this is a big step forward.
THANK YOU SO MUCH !
Do not hesitate to walk around in this tree - media have not been uploaded to save time
4 items could be improved , IMHO:
- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID,
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "witness role: Principal of XXX"
But whatever you decide to implement, this is a big step forward.
THANK YOU SO MUCH !
Do not hesitate to walk around in this tree - media have not been uploaded to save time
Last edited by tatewise on 19 Dec 2023 18:45, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: Remove broken links
Reason: Remove broken links
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
And here the same, where I replaced the tree ID: "tree1" by "FHimport"
(I also deleted all the expressions "witness role:")
(I also deleted all the expressions "witness role:")
Last edited by tatewise on 19 Dec 2023 18:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove broken link
Reason: Remove broken link
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I have just tried the new plug-in using using the Min setting and changing tree1 to tree2 in the output gedcom
It works well, with no problems that I can see.
Thanks Mike
It works well, with no problems that I can see.
Thanks Mike
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.OlivierM wrote: ↑30 Nov 2023 17:12 As you will notice, 4 items could be improved , IMHO:
- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID,
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "witness role: Principal of XXX"
The label Witness Role is governed by the plugin Labels Set A tab, where you can delete the label entirely.
You can also decide whether the list of witnesses comes before or after any other local Notes.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID
I'd have to investigate how easy that is to implement. What do you think of the suggestion John?
In TNG it is very easy to hop from the family page to the parent's pages.
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible.
That is an easy change. Does John agree with this change? I really don't want to make it an option.
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "Witness Role: Principal XXX".
I've implemented what was in my original proposal for the Min setting. What do you think of the idea John?
If you choose the Max setting then all the witnesses are listed and includes the current witness role.
It would be complicated to implement "YYY is Godmother of XXX" because it does not fit the general pattern of Role Person which is directly derived from the 2 _SHAR Rec Id 3 ROLE Role GEDCOM structure.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
At present I have changed "Witness role" to "Shared event" but I think I agree with Olivier and I will change it to blank.
I am not bothered by the ID numbers being shown but would be happy to lose them as long as that did not affect the action of the hyperlink.
It would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event but I can see some problems in adding a preposition like of/for/at for different events. I mainly use witness events for people named in someone else's will so should it be "for" the Principal or "of" the will? And who is the Principal when a young person is apprenticed to a master with his father or other relation as sponsor/payer?
To answer a previous question, I have used TNG since 2004 and currently have it running version 14.0.3 on two websites.
I am not bothered by the ID numbers being shown but would be happy to lose them as long as that did not affect the action of the hyperlink.
It would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event but I can see some problems in adding a preposition like of/for/at for different events. I mainly use witness events for people named in someone else's will so should it be "for" the Principal or "of" the will? And who is the Principal when a young person is apprenticed to a master with his father or other relation as sponsor/payer?
To answer a previous question, I have used TNG since 2004 and currently have it running version 14.0.3 on two websites.
Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I have not commented on the Family or Spouses point raised by Olivier.
I don't have a strong view ,but Family seems more logical when people have five or six marriages/liaisons in their lifetime.
I don't have a strong view ,but Family seems more logical when people have five or six marriages/liaisons in their lifetime.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Thank you for your feedback, John.
Glad to have the same approach.
It should not affect the hyperlink, it really increases the readability. And more important, it is consistent with the lay-out logic of TNG: the ID numbers are not displayed together with the names of linked persons (see children, husband etc).
I understand and share your view about prepositions. I would be happy not to use any preposition, the important thing being to mention the role of the witness in the event he witnesses.jclifford wrote: ↑30 Nov 2023 21:11 It would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event but I can see some problems in adding a preposition like of/for/at for different events. I mainly use witness events for people named in someone else's will so should it be "for" the Principal or "of" the will? And who is the Principal when a young person is apprenticed to a master with his father or other relation as sponsor/payer?
Last edited by OlivierM on 30 Nov 2023 21:59, edited 2 times in total.
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
If I propose a backlink to husband and wife person page instead of a link to the family page it is because the Family page in TNG is a list of persons including husband , wife and children, without a clear structure of who is who, and one would expect to find the reciprocal of the witness note somewhere on the page, which is hidden at the very bottom of the page, without a clear link to the relevant individuals.
Last edited by tatewise on 19 Dec 2023 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove broken links
Reason: Remove broken links
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Thank you again for your quick response. John and I agree on dropping the display of the ID numbers and the label "witness role". For the two other items, I will be happy to see what you decide. I understand these are more complex.tatewise wrote: ↑30 Nov 2023 20:29- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.OlivierM wrote: ↑30 Nov 2023 17:12 As you will notice, 4 items could be improved , IMHO:
- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID,
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "witness role: Principal of XXX"
The label Witness Role is governed by the plugin Labels Set A tab, where you can delete the label entirely.
You can also decide whether the list of witnesses comes before or after any other local Notes.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID
I'd have to investigate how easy that is to implement. What do you think of the suggestion John?
In TNG it is very easy to hop from the family page to the parent's pages.
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible.
That is an easy change. Does John agree with this change? I really don't want to make it an option.
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "Witness Role: Principal XXX".
I've implemented what was in my original proposal for the Min setting. What do you think of the idea John?
If you choose the Max setting then all the witnesses are listed and includes the current witness role.
It would be complicated to implement "YYY is Godmother of XXX" because it does not fit the general pattern of Role Person which is directly derived from the 2 _SHAR Rec Id 3 ROLE Role GEDCOM structure.
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I have been following this thread with interest as I also have an extensive TNG tree. I am sorry I have not had more time to contribute anything this time around.
Mike's enhancements to his already superb export plugin are a great improvement to the FH > TNG workflow. I haven't tested the latest version yet but will try to do so this weekend.
For what it's worth, I would prefer the ID number of the principal and witnesses to be dropped as well. I am not too bothered about where the marriage link goes, but would make sense for me to go to the family record. I also agree it would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event.
Thank you for your efforts once again Mike.
Mike's enhancements to his already superb export plugin are a great improvement to the FH > TNG workflow. I haven't tested the latest version yet but will try to do so this weekend.
For what it's worth, I would prefer the ID number of the principal and witnesses to be dropped as well. I am not too bothered about where the marriage link goes, but would make sense for me to go to the family record. I also agree it would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event.
Thank you for your efforts once again Mike.
Adrian Cook
Researching Cook, Summers, Phipps and Bradford, mainly in Wales and the South West of England
Researching Cook, Summers, Phipps and Bradford, mainly in Wales and the South West of England
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I've reviewed all your comments and investigated changes to the plugin, so here are my proposals.
Then I need to add a prompt for the TNG Tree ID to the user dialogue on the Main tab.
BTW: Olivier, all your web links now lead to a Login page.
- You guys can choose your own Witness Role label or omit the label using the plugin Labels Set A tab.
- The hyperlinks to family couples will remain because there is no full agreement to that change.
- The plugin will omit the [RecId] from hyperlink lines. I agree it is not needed.
- The Witness Role will be added to the Fact name as in FH, e.g. Baptism Godmother or Marriage Witness.
That avoids the difficulty of suitable prepositions.
Then I need to add a prompt for the TNG Tree ID to the user dialogue on the Main tab.
BTW: Olivier, all your web links now lead to a Login page.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Dear Mike,
Thank you for your proposals - I am very happy with them.
(and I will reopen my website - I did a wrong manipulation )
I have a last request:
My projects are written in French: This means that all sentences are translated in French, included the witness roles (godmother /father/witness/...)
In FH the default language of the project is defined in the "Language" field of the "Header Record":
Is it possible to use this field to pick the French translations of the witness roles in the Gedcom Plugin ?
If not possible I can translate the roles afterwards in the gedcom
I hope not to abuse your kindness...
Thank you for your proposals - I am very happy with them.
(and I will reopen my website - I did a wrong manipulation )
I have a last request:
My projects are written in French: This means that all sentences are translated in French, included the witness roles (godmother /father/witness/...)
In FH the default language of the project is defined in the "Language" field of the "Header Record":
Is it possible to use this field to pick the French translations of the witness roles in the Gedcom Plugin ?
If not possible I can translate the roles afterwards in the gedcom
I hope not to abuse your kindness...
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I'll add the translation of Roles to my things-to-do list because it is not very straightforward.
The Fact Types data definition files with Language Variants are quite complex and difficult for plugins to interpret.
The Fact Types data definition files with Language Variants are quite complex and difficult for plugins to interpret.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I am also very happy with Mike's proposals and thank him for his patience and interest in this subject.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Yes, I thought it would be rather difficult.
Thank you for putting it on your to-do's.
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I wondered if you could use the "receiving system" field of the "header record" to define the tree ID in TNG.
I know this field is meant for LDS purposes, but I guess it is very very seldom used.
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Yes, I had considered whether a Project field like that was an option and that Header Receiving System field looks ideally suited and is propagated to exported standalone GEDCOM files that may host the plugin.
I'll go with that approach until somebody complains that it is not suitable, perhaps because another destination product also needs a tree identity or similar.
I suppose we could use the format TNG=tree1 so that if some other destination product needs a name then it would become TNG=tree1 XYZ=mytree where the three-letter code is the plugin GEDCOM Destination code shown in brackets, i.e. (TNG) The Next Generation.
I'll go with that approach until somebody complains that it is not suitable, perhaps because another destination product also needs a tree identity or similar.
I suppose we could use the format TNG=tree1 so that if some other destination product needs a name then it would become TNG=tree1 XYZ=mytree where the three-letter code is the plugin GEDCOM Destination code shown in brackets, i.e. (TNG) The Next Generation.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Like always, you are thinking some steps ahead. You must be a good chess player
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
It is quite a while since I've played chess, or bridge which needs similar thinking ahead, but I do think with a generic global focus from various angles.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Dear Mike,tatewise wrote: ↑01 Dec 2023 16:46 I've reviewed all your comments and investigated changes to the plugin, so here are my proposals.I need to finish testing the plugin updates, but I think the above are a satisfactory outcome.
- You guys can choose your own Witness Role label or omit the label using the plugin Labels Set A tab.
- The hyperlinks to family couples will remain because there is no full agreement to that change.
- The plugin will omit the [RecId] from hyperlink lines. I agree it is not needed.
- The Witness Role will be added to the Fact name as in FH, e.g. Baptism Godmother or Marriage Witness.
That avoids the difficulty of suitable prepositions.
Then I need to add a prompt for the TNG Tree ID to the user dialogue on the Main tab.
BTW: Olivier, all your web links now lead to a Login page.
I simply want to inform you that it could be possible to combine a link back to the relevant family page AND to the person pages as follows:
Last edited by tatewise on 19 Dec 2023 18:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove broken link
Reason: Remove broken link
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
I've taken up both the suggestions by Olivier.
So try the attached Export Gedcom File plugin Version 5.5.3 Date 04 Dec 2023 compressed ZIP file.
It requires the Header record Receiving System field to specify the TNG Tree ID using the format:
TNG:tree2 alternatives allowed include TNG=tree2 or TNG: tree2 or TNG = tree2
If the Max or Min options are chosen, then it will use the TNG hyperlink Tree ID format as agreed earlier.
If not defined then the plugin reverts to using the textual [RecId] Name display format.
For a principal family, the plugin now uses a triple hyperlink display format such as:
Witness Role: Principal Family of John SMITH and Jane DOE
It caters for families with no parents, single parents, heterosexual parents and same-sex parents.
Please check that all the angles have been covered satisfactorily by trying out all the options.
So try the attached Export Gedcom File plugin Version 5.5.3 Date 04 Dec 2023 compressed ZIP file.
It requires the Header record Receiving System field to specify the TNG Tree ID using the format:
TNG:tree2 alternatives allowed include TNG=tree2 or TNG: tree2 or TNG = tree2
If the Max or Min options are chosen, then it will use the TNG hyperlink Tree ID format as agreed earlier.
If not defined then the plugin reverts to using the textual [RecId] Name display format.
For a principal family, the plugin now uses a triple hyperlink display format such as:
Witness Role: Principal Family of John SMITH and Jane DOE
It caters for families with no parents, single parents, heterosexual parents and same-sex parents.
Please check that all the angles have been covered satisfactorily by trying out all the options.
Last edited by tatewise on 09 Dec 2023 17:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Attachment deleted as a better version is attachd later.
Reason: Attachment deleted as a better version is attachd later.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Hello Mike,
I just tried it, (I used TNG: tree2, with a space) and it works perfectly.
I, for me, would drop the word "principal" everywhere, but I am interested to know what the other TNG users think about.
In the following example, you see the two possibilities: with or without the word "Principal"
I just tried it, (I used TNG: tree2, with a space) and it works perfectly.
I, for me, would drop the word "principal" everywhere, but I am interested to know what the other TNG users think about.
In the following example, you see the two possibilities: with or without the word "Principal"
Last edited by tatewise on 19 Dec 2023 18:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove broken link
Reason: Remove broken link
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
- tatewise
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Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff
Does dropping Principal work in all scenarios?
I try to spend some time thinking about many general cases rather than a specific example.
Imagine the case of the Roles of Godmother and Godfather at a Baptism so the witness fact might be like:
Name * * * * * * * * Jean Georges
Baptism Godfather 7 Apr 1815
* * * * * * * * * * * * Nicolas Reding
So is Nicolas Reding the Godfather of Jean Georges or is Jean Georges Godfather to the Principal Nicolas Reding?
Whereas:
Baptism Godfather 7 Apr 1815
* * * * * * * * * * * * Principal Nicolas Reding is unambiguous.
I try to spend some time thinking about many general cases rather than a specific example.
Imagine the case of the Roles of Godmother and Godfather at a Baptism so the witness fact might be like:
Name * * * * * * * * Jean Georges
Baptism Godfather 7 Apr 1815
* * * * * * * * * * * * Nicolas Reding
So is Nicolas Reding the Godfather of Jean Georges or is Jean Georges Godfather to the Principal Nicolas Reding?
Whereas:
Baptism Godfather 7 Apr 1815
* * * * * * * * * * * * Principal Nicolas Reding is unambiguous.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry