* TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

[jclifford]

Thank you ColeValleyGirl for putting me straight and apologies to Mike and Olivier for misleading information.

Mike's export plug-in is likely to be used for additions and changes to existing trees as well as for populating new trees so I cannot see a way for him to always use an ID like "tree1" as part of hyperlinks created in a gedcom to be uploaded to TNG.

So a facility in the plug-in for the user to enter an ID looks (to me) like the only solution at present.

[tatewise]

So a facility in the plug-in for the user to enter an ID looks (to me) like the only solution at present.

Yes, I agree eventually, but for now, I am using tree1 for experimental plugin testing.
You can replace that with whatever Tree ID you wish by a global search and replace in the exported GEDCOM file that replaces tree=tree1 with tree=whatever.

The attached Export Gedcom File plugin Version 5.5.2 Date 30 Nov 2023 compressed ZIP file should produce the desired hyperlinks but only with TNG as GEDCOM Destination and only with Move to Fact Note Max/Min chosen.

It should produce Witness Role hyperlink Notes like:
Witness Role: Witness <a href="getperson.php?personID=I642&amp;tree=tree1">[I642] John SMITH</a>
Witness Role: Principal <a href="familygroup.php?familyID=F7&amp;tree=tree1">[F7] ...of John SMITH and Jane DOE</a>

[OlivierM]

Hello Mike,

4 items could be improved , IMHO:

- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID,
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "witness role: Principal of XXX"

But whatever you decide to implement, this is a big step forward.

THANK YOU SO MUCH !

Do not hesitate to walk around in this tree - media have not been uploaded to save time

[OlivierM]

And here the same, where I replaced the tree ID: "tree1" by "FHimport"

(I also deleted all the expressions "witness role:")

[jclifford]

I have just tried the new plug-in using using the Min setting and changing tree1 to tree2 in the output gedcom

It works well, with no problems that I can see.

Thanks Mike

[tatewise]

As you will notice, 4 items could be improved , IMHO:
- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID,
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "witness role: Principal of XXX"

- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
The label Witness Role is governed by the plugin Labels Set A tab, where you can delete the label entirely.
You can also decide whether the list of witnesses comes before or after any other local Notes.

- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID
I'd have to investigate how easy that is to implement. What do you think of the suggestion John?
In TNG it is very easy to hop from the family page to the parent's pages.

- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible.
That is an easy change. Does John agree with this change? I really don't want to make it an option.

- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "Witness Role: Principal XXX".
I've implemented what was in my original proposal for the Min setting. What do you think of the idea John?
If you choose the Max setting then all the witnesses are listed and includes the current witness role.
It would be complicated to implement "YYY is Godmother of XXX" because it does not fit the general pattern of Role Person which is directly derived from the 2 _SHAR Rec Id 3 ROLE Role GEDCOM structure.

[jclifford]

At present I have changed "Witness role" to "Shared event" but I think I agree with Olivier and I will change it to blank.

I am not bothered by the ID numbers being shown but would be happy to lose them as long as that did not affect the action of the hyperlink.

It would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event but I can see some problems in adding a preposition like of/for/at for different events. I mainly use witness events for people named in someone else's will so should it be "for" the Principal or "of" the will? And who is the Principal when a young person is apprenticed to a master with his father or other relation as sponsor/payer?

To answer a previous question, I have used TNG since 2004 and currently have it running version 14.0.3 on two websites.

[jclifford]

I have not commented on the Family or Spouses point raised by Olivier.

I don't have a strong view ,but Family seems more logical when people have five or six marriages/liaisons in their lifetime.

[OlivierM]

Thank you for your feedback, John.

At present I have changed "Witness role" to "Shared event" but I think I agree with Olivier and I will change it to blank.

Glad to have the same approach.

I am not bothered by the ID numbers being shown but would be happy to lose them as long as that did not affect the action of the hyperlink.

It should not affect the hyperlink, it really increases the readability. And more important, it is consistent with the lay-out logic of TNG: the ID numbers are not displayed together with the names of linked persons (see children, husband etc).

It would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event but I can see some problems in adding a preposition like of/for/at for different events. I mainly use witness events for people named in someone else's will so should it be "for" the Principal or "of" the will? And who is the Principal when a young person is apprenticed to a master with his father or other relation as sponsor/payer?

I understand and share your view about prepositions. I would be happy not to use any preposition, the important thing being to mention the role of the witness in the event he witnesses.

[OlivierM]

I have not commented on the Family or Spouses point raised by Olivier.

I don't have a strong view ,but Family seems more logical when people have five or six marriages/liaisons in their lifetime.

If I propose a backlink to husband and wife person page instead of a link to the family page it is because the Family page in TNG is a list of persons including husband , wife and children, without a clear structure of who is who, and one would expect to find the reciprocal of the witness note somewhere on the page, which is hidden at the very bottom of the page, without a clear link to the relevant individuals.

[OlivierM]

As you will notice, 4 items could be improved , IMHO:
- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID,
- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible
- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "witness role: Principal of XXX"

- The words "witness role:" could be dropped because they are redundant.
The label Witness Role is governed by the plugin Labels Set A tab, where you can delete the label entirely.
You can also decide whether the list of witnesses comes before or after any other local Notes.

- The reciprocal link(s) for marriage witnesses should ideally go to the two married Person ID's and not to the Family ID
I'd have to investigate how easy that is to implement. What do you think of the suggestion John?
In TNG it is very easy to hop from the family page to the parent's pages.

- The ID number of the witnesses and the principals should not be visible.
That is an easy change. Does John agree with this change? I really don't want to make it an option.

- The actual role of the witness should be displayed in the related witness event: "YYY is Godmother of XXX" instead of "Witness Role: Principal XXX".
I've implemented what was in my original proposal for the Min setting. What do you think of the idea John?
If you choose the Max setting then all the witnesses are listed and includes the current witness role.
It would be complicated to implement "YYY is Godmother of XXX" because it does not fit the general pattern of Role Person which is directly derived from the 2 _SHAR Rec Id 3 ROLE Role GEDCOM structure.

Thank you again for your quick response. John and I agree on dropping the display of the ID numbers and the label "witness role". For the two other items, I will be happy to see what you decide. I understand these are more complex.

[ADC65]

I have been following this thread with interest as I also have an extensive TNG tree. I am sorry I have not had more time to contribute anything this time around.

Mike's enhancements to his already superb export plugin are a great improvement to the FH > TNG workflow. I haven't tested the latest version yet but will try to do so this weekend.

For what it's worth, I would prefer the ID number of the principal and witnesses to be dropped as well. I am not too bothered about where the marriage link goes, but would make sense for me to go to the family record. I also agree it would be nice to have to have the actual role showing in the witness event.

Thank you for your efforts once again Mike.

[tatewise]

I've reviewed all your comments and investigated changes to the plugin, so here are my proposals.

1. You guys can choose your own Witness Role label or omit the label using the plugin Labels Set A tab.
2. The hyperlinks to family couples will remain because there is no full agreement to that change.
3. The plugin will omit the [RecId] from hyperlink lines. I agree it is not needed.
4. The Witness Role will be added to the Fact name as in FH, e.g. Baptism Godmother or Marriage Witness.
   That avoids the difficulty of suitable prepositions.

I need to finish testing the plugin updates, but I think the above are a satisfactory outcome.
Then I need to add a prompt for the TNG Tree ID to the user dialogue on the Main tab.

BTW: Olivier, all your web links now lead to a Login page.

[OlivierM]

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your proposals - I am very happy with them.
(and I will reopen my website - I did a wrong manipulation )

I have a last request:

My projects are written in French: This means that all sentences are translated in French, included the witness roles (godmother /father/witness/...)

In FH the default language of the project is defined in the "Language" field of the "Header Record":
Is it possible to use this field to pick the French translations of the witness roles in the Gedcom Plugin ?

If not possible I can translate the roles afterwards in the gedcom

I hope not to abuse your kindness...

[tatewise]

I'll add the translation of Roles to my things-to-do list because it is not very straightforward.
The Fact Types data definition files with Language Variants are quite complex and difficult for plugins to interpret.

[jclifford]

I am also very happy with Mike's proposals and thank him for his patience and interest in this subject.

[OlivierM]

I'll add the translation of Roles to my things-to-do list because it is not very straightforward.
The Fact Types data definition files with Language Variants are quite complex and difficult for plugins to interpret.

Yes, I thought it would be rather difficult.
Thank you for putting it on your to-do's.

[OlivierM]

Then I need to add a prompt for the TNG Tree ID to the user dialogue on the Main tab.

BTW: Olivier, all your web links now lead to a Login page.

I wondered if you could use the "receiving system" field of the "header record" to define the tree ID in TNG.
I know this field is meant for LDS purposes, but I guess it is very very seldom used.

[tatewise]

Yes, I had considered whether a Project field like that was an option and that Header Receiving System field looks ideally suited and is propagated to exported standalone GEDCOM files that may host the plugin.

I'll go with that approach until somebody complains that it is not suitable, perhaps because another destination product also needs a tree identity or similar.

I suppose we could use the format TNG=tree1 so that if some other destination product needs a name then it would become TNG=tree1 XYZ=mytree where the three-letter code is the plugin GEDCOM Destination code shown in brackets, i.e. (TNG) The Next Generation.

[OlivierM]

I suppose we could use the format TNG=tree1 so that if some other destination product needs a name then it would become TNG=tree1 XYZ=mytree where the three-letter code is the plugin GEDCOM Destination code shown in brackets, i.e. (TNG) The Next Generation.

Like always, you are thinking some steps ahead. You must be a good chess player

[tatewise]

It is quite a while since I've played chess, or bridge which needs similar thinking ahead, but I do think with a generic global focus from various angles.

[OlivierM]

I've reviewed all your comments and investigated changes to the plugin, so here are my proposals.

1. You guys can choose your own Witness Role label or omit the label using the plugin Labels Set A tab.
2. The hyperlinks to family couples will remain because there is no full agreement to that change.
3. The plugin will omit the [RecId] from hyperlink lines. I agree it is not needed.
4. The Witness Role will be added to the Fact name as in FH, e.g. Baptism Godmother or Marriage Witness.
   That avoids the difficulty of suitable prepositions.

I need to finish testing the plugin updates, but I think the above are a satisfactory outcome.
Then I need to add a prompt for the TNG Tree ID to the user dialogue on the Main tab.

BTW: Olivier, all your web links now lead to a Login page.

Dear Mike,

I simply want to inform you that it could be possible to combine a link back to the relevant family page AND to the person pages as follows:

image.png (12.76 KiB) Viewed 637 times

[tatewise]

I've taken up both the suggestions by Olivier.
So try the attached Export Gedcom File plugin Version 5.5.3 Date 04 Dec 2023 compressed ZIP file.

It requires the Header record Receiving System field to specify the TNG Tree ID using the format:
TNG:tree2 alternatives allowed include TNG=tree2 or TNG: tree2 or TNG = tree2
If the Max or Min options are chosen, then it will use the TNG hyperlink Tree ID format as agreed earlier.
If not defined then the plugin reverts to using the textual [RecId] Name display format.

For a principal family, the plugin now uses a triple hyperlink display format such as:
Witness Role: Principal Family of John SMITH and Jane DOE
It caters for families with no parents, single parents, heterosexual parents and same-sex parents.

Please check that all the angles have been covered satisfactorily by trying out all the options.

[OlivierM]

Hello Mike,

I just tried it, (I used TNG: tree2, with a space) and it works perfectly.

I, for me, would drop the word "principal" everywhere, but I am interested to know what the other TNG users think about.
In the following example, you see the two possibilities: with or without the word "Principal"

image.png (25.79 KiB) Viewed 569 times

[tatewise]

Does dropping Principal work in all scenarios?
I try to spend some time thinking about many general cases rather than a specific example.

Imagine the case of the Roles of Godmother and Godfather at a Baptism so the witness fact might be like:
Name * * * * * * * * Jean Georges
Baptism Godfather 7 Apr 1815
* * * * * * * * * * * * Nicolas Reding
So is Nicolas Reding the Godfather of Jean Georges or is Jean Georges Godfather to the Principal Nicolas Reding?
Whereas:
Baptism Godfather 7 Apr 1815
* * * * * * * * * * * * Principal Nicolas Reding is unambiguous.