* Sources, Citations, and Methods

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DarrylGale
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Sources, Citations, and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 27 Dec 2015 08:48

Hi all,

I'm a FTM user who purchased FH a few days ago so I did an intensive study of its program as well as FHUG, upgraded to 6.1 and imported a GEDCOM successfully to experiment with and the usual missing bits were things such as no media links, some missing notes, some facts not showing such as Funeral, Military etc (but then lots of other custom facts were there) etc, etc, etc.
Sources, Citations and Methods (13159) is an interesting thread as my needs are different here as I run a TNG website http://www.galeancestry.com so I don't require all the bells and whistles of a genealogy program, rather my needs are to house BMD and lots (and I mean lots) of facts and notes. My website is about quality rather than quantity as I build up life stories of my ancestors in intricate detail with many custom facts and in turn this means many detailed sources and notes.
In FTM you attach a Citation to a Source e.g. a source could be "England & Wales FreeBMD Birth Index 1837-1983" and there could be hundreds of citations attached here such as "Person's name, September Qtr 1879, District of Epsom, Surrey, Volume 2a, Page 9" which is attached to that person's Birth Fact. It's a simple method that works well within FTM.
A census source could be "1891 England Census, Hampshire" and the citation/s would be those census records that apply to this census county. In FTM images can be added to the Source or Citation however text notes can only be added to the Citation so it makes sense to add the image there. My Citation text is a record of the image e.g. a full censes is recorded there as it serves the purpose as a quick reference in the Sources section of my TNG website.
If I refer to AS method 1 and method 2 then FTM is all about method 2 whereas FH is more about method 1. I'm not concerned about either method other than getting the GEDCOM right for my website. If I refer to my first example above for FreeBMD with either AS method 1 or method 2 I would have under FTM say 1 source and 200 citations whereas under FH I would have 200 sources and 200 citations - if I used the AS method 1 then I would disregard entering data into a citation so that leaves me with 200 sources only (Citations only as a link) with each source named such as "England & Wales FreeBMD Birth Index 1837-1983 Person's name" and in the text from source would be "September Qtr 1879, District of Epsom, Surrey, Volume 2a, Page 9" - (I'm assuming this is how it would be loaded into my website and future testing would determine that) - I get the same result either way except I'll be looking at lots of sources rather than a few sources and lots of citations.
With a census I don't record address, occupation, etc as a separate fact as I record this information into the person's note because it works best this way for my website - I've noticed there is a separate field in the census fact for address. If I recorded everything in FTM on all of my documents against new facts then a user would be forever scrolling down my website to find meaningful information. So which method is best? It's up to you as we are all right in how we use the data! Today I prefer the FTM method as that's all that I know and in time I'll prefer the FH method as that would also be all that I know.
I've downloaded AS, which looks very appealing, and I'll experiment with it in due course, and as FH uses its sources a different way to FTM then if that's the way that I have to proceed then I'll redo all my sources under method 1.
Ian - excellent threads on FTM and I'll be keeping a close eye on the development of your FTM_Fixer plugin as this could be the decision maker for many FTM users to make the switch to FH. As my research is mainly UK based then a UK genealogy program is the logical path to proceed down.

Regards

Darryl

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by NickWalker » 27 Dec 2015 11:01

Hi Darryl

Thanks for that post. I wouldn't say that FH is more about method 1 than 2. Both methods work perfectly well. The very fact that AS supports both methods (and allows multimedia to be linked to source, citation or event) illustrates that.

For the example you give of FreeBMD, I would also use method 2 - I just put a birth event in and link to a single FreeBMD source. There really wouldn't be any benefit to having 200 sources and 200 citations as you describe. I also wouldn't bother using AS for this.

Method 1 only really becomes a better system when you want to include a transcription of the source and link an image to it and where the source document leads to multiple citations - e.g. a single marriage certificate could be linked to a marriage fact, birth facts for the couple, occupations for the couple, residence for the couple, names of parents, occupations of parents, residence of parents.

Cheers

Nick
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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by AdrianBruce » 27 Dec 2015 12:26

DavidNewton wrote:... crucial distinction is that in FTM if you copy a citation to paste to other facts then when you paste you have the choice of linking or copying, a choice which is not available in FH which only allows copying. As Adrian Bruce says this surely implies a database structure in which citations are primary records, which is not the case with FH. ...
Thanks for that confirmation of my potentially fallible memory / impression, David.

It seems to be similar in the on-line Ancestry trees (which may be coincidence or parallel evolution or deliberate matching) where a single record of "Citation Details" (a) exists as a record that can be retrieved afterwards and (b) can have multiple Associated facts that it's related to.

To descend / ascend into Data Analysis speak, the cardinality of the relationship between Citation-Details and Fact in Ancestry is many-to-many - i.e. a Citation-Details can have many associated Facts and a Fact can have many Citation-Details.

Whereas in GEDCOM (and therefore FH) the cardinality of the relationship between Citation and Fact in Ancestry is many-to-one, i.e. a Citation "record" can have only one associated Fact but a Fact can have many Citation "records".

I'm not making any case that one is better than the other, just documenting what it is in case this helps people understand. (Having said that, given that GEDCOM and FH may have repeat copies of the data in a Citation, arguably the FTM / on-line Ancestry approach is better).
Adrian

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 28 Dec 2015 08:12

Hi all,

I experimented with sources today on the Sample Project and I have a few comments (I haven't used AS yet and please correct me if I haven't used the right procedures on any of the following):
(1) I created a single source "1881 Census" as a master source and then created citations for Hampshire, Kent, etc, added some text in "Where within Source" etc and attached them to various people. This works ok except if you also attach an image then the number of images on the "1881 Census" grows substantially and unless you have a full image description to sort them then this exercise is fruitless. Also the "All" tab will record all the images attached to the "1881 Census" source record so the individual will have 1881 census images that do not belong to them. If there's no image then only using a citation works ok.
(2) If you prefer to attach an image then we're back to creating a single source for each census as per AS method 1 so my prior post of the FreeBMD scenario is preferred for those who always attach an image.
(3) I then had to attach the image to the 1881 census fact on each individual which means if I attach an image to a source then I have to repeat the step again to attach the same image to the fact. Is there a better way to do this? You may ask why are you doing this when the image is on the source?.....How do I know the image is on the source? I would have to do a few clicks each time on the source record to confirm. If I see the image icon on the Property Box under the Facts tab against the census fact then I know it's there.
(4) Reading the prior posts here I need to make the following comment to clear up an interruption that I'm struggling with - it appears to me that an image cannot be attached to a citation rather an image can only be attached to a source and this image can be viewed from either the source record or the "All" tab (which does not appear to be linked to a citation however I don't know the structure of the FH database - it might be interpreted that an image attached to a source is also deemed to be attached or linked to a citation but in the context of the actual procedure involved here it can only be "attached" to a source).
(5) I don't like to compare however.....in FTM a source "1881 Census" is created then a citation is created say "Hampshire Petersfield etc" a link to the database enables you to select the individual with the fact and an image is attached "globally" to the citation and well as an image icon on the individual's page. Very simple and quick to complete whereas the FH method is time consuming with a few different steps involved.
Nick - would AS attach an image direct to the source and also the census fact upon a save to FH?
This thread is a very important for FTM users to make the switch to FH as I have also struggled along with Ian with sources and citations within FH as these are the backbone of my genealogy research.

Regards

Darryl

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by NickWalker » 28 Dec 2015 09:33

Hi Darryl

An image can be attached to a citation but as Mike (Tatewise) said in his first reply, this is rather hidden away. In the screenshot below I'm looking at the properties for Ian Munro and have selected the All tab. I've then expanded the Occupation and have right-clicked on the Source title and this then allows me to add a Multimedia object to the citation.
Add Multimedia to Citation.PNG
Add Multimedia to Citation.PNG (34.43 KiB) Viewed 5401 times
Note that if I click on the checkbox next to the 'Verbal/Personal..' source and then right-click on that text I then get options to add to the source itself!
Add Multimedia to Source.PNG
Add Multimedia to Source.PNG (39.24 KiB) Viewed 5401 times
In this next screenshot you can see the 3 different levels of multimedia links a) to fact itself (green arrow), b) to citation (blue arrow) and c) to source (red arrow)
All 3 Multimedia Links.PNG
All 3 Multimedia Links.PNG (29.83 KiB) Viewed 5394 times
Before you say it, I agree that this isn't intuitive! Though once the citation has been created you can right-click and copy and then paste it onto other facts.

Technically in the GEDCOM file a citation is really just an extra set of fields added to a fact so there isn't really a lot of difference between adding the image to the fact and adding an image to a citation and I suspect that is why Calico have hidden the citation multimedia options away so they don't appear on the standard citation dialogue boxes.

To answer your AS question, if you are using method 1 then the image is linked to the source and not the fact as well because there is no need to do that. When you click on a fact (e.g. census fact) you just need to click the Show Media button to see it. So you wouldn't see any benefit of adding directly to the fact too.
View Media.PNG
View Media.PNG (50.47 KiB) Viewed 5401 times
If you're using method 2 then you get the choice to link media to the fact or the citation.
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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 28 Dec 2015 11:35

Hi Nick,

That makes more sense to attach media to a citation as I couldn't find that in the help file - it certainly isn't very intuitive!
You need a different mindset for FH as most of the genealogy programs on the market are US based so they have a sequence of create the source then create the citation and use a system to cite sources that is overkill. It's a different process with FH but it still needs some improvement to capture a new audience e.g. when you select the "Add Citation" link you're adding or creating a source that links with the citation and that button confused me the first time that I used it as I was expecting to actually add a citation, which I didn't, but I did in FH.
My reason to have images in the Property Box is because if you create a lot of facts then you can see at a glance which facts have an image and that would save time rather than having to click on every fact to find an image attached to a source. This then leads onto another enhancement in the Property Box for sources as an icon such as "s" could be next to a fact if it contains a source. Again this is a time saver as it would give the person at a glance which facts don't have a source and those that don't have an image. Less clicks means more productive research and data entry. It's a standard feature in FTM which could also be a standard feature in FH.
Would a future AS enhancement include the option to add an image link to the source and also the fact?

Regards

Darryl

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by NickWalker » 28 Dec 2015 12:28

DarrylGale wrote:My reason to have images in the Property Box is because if you create a lot of facts then you can see at a glance which facts have an image and that would save time rather than having to click on every fact to find an image attached to a source. This then leads onto another enhancement in the Property Box for sources as an icon such as "s" could be next to a fact if it contains a source. Again this is a time saver as it would give the person at a glance which facts don't have a source and those that don't have an image. Less clicks means more productive research and data entry.
But that's the case already (assuming you have the yellow citation pane permanently open as most people would). When you click on an event it shows the source if there is one and the 'Show Media' button only activates if there is an image. So this is at a glance and no clicks required.
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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 28 Dec 2015 12:42

Wrong answer there!
The wish list is to open the Property Box and not have to click on any facts as an icon for an image or a new icon for a source will be shown against all the facts so at a glance you can see what's there and what's not there. I've already found it to be very repetitive clicking on all the facts to find a source and then check for an image.
The yellow citation pane is always open.
dg

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DavidNewton » 28 Dec 2015 12:52

Sorry for this nit-picking but Nick is not totally accurate in saying no clicks. First of all it is necessary to click on the event to make the appropriate source show up in the source pane. Secondly if you have more than one source for an event only the first one is selected so it is necessary to ensure that if there is an image that it is attached to the first source listed (good practice anyway). This problem was considered in a thread several months ago Property Box - showing sources (12275) with a solution from Mike Tate.

Following on from that I made the necessary modifications in the Advanced box of my facts so that each description was preceded by * if there is a source (I did not modify to count all the sources) and a + if an image was attached to the first listed source. This requires a one-off effort to add the text

{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR%, "*" )}{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR>OBJE%,"+")}

at the front of the Override Template for Facts tab listings. The net result is shown below in a clip from a property box.
PropertyBox.JPG
PropertyBox.JPG (44.01 KiB) Viewed 5349 times

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by NickWalker » 28 Dec 2015 12:57

OK point taken but then it could be argued that you're wasting time even clicking on the individual in the first place and why not just run a report or plug-in that will display all the facts that having missing sources or source images. Or indeed a list of all sources without images.
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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by NickWalker » 28 Dec 2015 13:10

I should add that all I've been trying to do in this thread is help Darryl to understand what FH can do with citations but I'm not suggesting FH is perfect and I don't want to come over as being an apologist for it. When I first started to use Family Historian I realised how time consuming adding all the events, citations, images, etc. to a census entry was and that's why I developed a little program one day to help me to do this more quickly (and I was later persuaded to make this available for others to use and further developed it over the last 10+ years).
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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 28 Dec 2015 13:18

David & Mike - that is exactly what I require. It's after midnight in this part of the world so I'll have a look at it in the morning - I'm already in your tomorrow!
Nick - this is a good tool which I have used in FTM and even though a report will work these indicators are excellent to save you time as you work solely on one person or a branch.
Thanks to all and I'll post back once I test this further.
dg

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 29 Dec 2015 04:26

Hi David & Mike,

I added the text to some facts and attributes:

{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR%, "*" )}{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR>OBJE%,"+")}

and it created the *+ where appropriate however the fact text has disappeared i.e. the fact column will show *+ then "blank." What would need to be changed to get back the fact text?

Regards

Darryl

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DavidNewton » 29 Dec 2015 09:27

My apologies Darryl I failed to say that it is necessary to write a complete template in the Advanced box. To quote from an earlier post by Mike
In the Advanced Template use {=ExistsText( %FACT.SOUR%, "* " )}{abbr} {place} for Events.
Alternatively Attributes will need {=ExistsText( %FACT.SOUR%, "* " )}{abbr} {value}.
combining that with the above:
In the Advanced Template use
{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR%, "*" )}{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR>OBJE%,"+")}{abbr} {place} for Events.
Alternatively Attributes will need
{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR%, "*" )}{=ExistsText(%FACT.SOUR>OBJE%,"+")}{abbr} {value}.
of course you can write any template you want to bring out the information that you would like to show in the Facts tab.

David

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by tatewise » 29 Dec 2015 09:48

Also, if you want to keep the Facts more neatly aligned use:

{=TextIf( Exists( %FACT.SOUR>% ), "*", "-" )}{=TextIf( Exists( %FACT.SOUR>OBJE% ), "+", " -" )} {abbr} {place} (or {value})

or whatever other symbols you prefer, except leading spaces that get ignored.

e.g.
*+ Born means Source + Media
* - Born means Source no Media
- - Born means no Source
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 29 Dec 2015 11:06

Hi David & Mike,

Thanks for that. Using Mike's text it aligns perfectly and I like the 2 dashes with no source and no media.
I haven't come across that part of adding advanced text to facts in FH as I've only owned it for a few days but already I can see the types of customisation that can be done so the product has a lot to offer. It's such a difference from FTM which did have simple and clean screens with everything correctly in its place, but then FTM was very rigid with no advanced customisation as that was the way Ancestry wanted it.
Have you added any advanced text to the "Use Override Template for Record Window listings" as I'm curious as to what might appear on the Record Window screen?

Regards

Darryl

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by tatewise » 29 Dec 2015 11:43

Essentially, the effect is the same as on the Facts tab, and only affects the Facts displayed in the Records Window when you expand any Individual by clicking on their [+] icon.

BTW: The same effect appears on the All tab of the Property Box.

Note that the following adds Place details to an Attribute that are not shown by default:

{=TextIf( Exists( %FACT.SOUR>% ), "*", "-" )}{=TextIf( Exists( %FACT.SOUR>OBJE% ), "+", " -" )} {abbr} {value} {place}

Yes, you will discover that although FH may not appear to offer as much as other products straight out of the box, it offers much customisation, and tries to appeal to both novices and experts alike.

These customisations are an introduction to Expressions that involve Functions such as =TextIf(), and Data Refs such as %FACT.SOUR>%, and Template Codes such as {place}.
See Knowledge Base > Understanding Expressions.
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Re: Sources, Citations, and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 30 Dec 2015 12:49

Thanks Mike.

I have some further study and research to do for FH.

dg

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Re: Sources, Citations, and Methods

Post by lastejas » 05 Jan 2016 11:04

Mike,

You need to add the {date} code after {abbr} for the Records window listings ONLY as inserting the initial String removes the date.

{=TextIf( Exists( %FACT.SOUR>% ), "*", "-" )}{=TextIf( Exists( %FACT.SOUR>OBJE% ), "+", " -" )} {abbr} {date} {place}

example for Census in Records Window etc

without Modification - Census on 2 April 1871 in Brinnington, Cheshire, England

with initial Modification - *+ Census in Brinnington, Cheshire, England

Modification with date - *+ Census on 2 April 1871 in Brinnington, Cheshire, England
i.e same as original but with the *- symbols.

This is the case for both the Census Fact and the Occupation Attribute. I have not tried it with other events etc but would imagine its the same.
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Re: Sources, Citations, and Methods

Post by tatewise » 05 Jan 2016 11:32

Well spotted Rick - thank you.
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Re: Sources, Citations, and Methods

Post by DarrylGale » 05 Jan 2016 11:50

Hi Rick,

You're correct. I updated a few facts and it's the same for all of them in the Records window as they now also show the date.

Regards

Darryl

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Re: Sources, Citations, and Methods

Post by dbridge276 » 29 May 2018 08:48

This thread and another are closely aligned.

I have posted a comment in the other thread which may be of interest to readers of this thread.

See viewtopic.php?t=13159#p85722
Researching Bridge, Carney/Street, Renwick, Parsons.

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Re: Sources, Citations and Methods

Post by jmurphy » 29 May 2018 09:43

Sorry for the late reply but I've just seen this thread for the first time and I didn't see this when it was first posted.
DarrylGale wrote:You need a different mindset for FH as most of the genealogy programs on the market are US based so they have a sequence of create the source then create the citation and use a system to cite sources that is overkill. It's a different process with FH but it still needs some improvement to capture a new audience e.g. when you select the "Add Citation" link you're adding or creating a source that links with the citation and that button confused me the first time that I used it as I was expecting to actually add a citation, which I didn't, but I did in FH.
I found this startling because my experience with the US-based software I tried in 2006 gave me the opposite impression of what you are saying. They made it easy for users to just slam data into the program with no regard for where it came from, and then perhaps the user might create a source eventually, and then puzzle over where to hang the citation.

FH, on the other hand, with its Auto-Source Citation feature, made it simple to record the information about the source first and then extract the information from the source as I entered it into the database. Instead of the census example or BMDs, let's use a common US example, a lengthy obituary. My aunt's obituary is a masterpiece of genealogical writing. It lists many memberships she had in various societies, her church, etc. and lists many survivors, including the fiancé of one of her granddaughters.

With FH, it was a snap to make a multimedia object for the obituary clipping, then create the source. Once that was done, I could turn on Auto-Source Creation and then extract all the data from her obit, with FH adding the citation to each fact as I went along.
The only downside is that you have to remember to turn off Auto-Source Citation when you are done extracting the information.

None of the US-based programs I tried -- and I tried nearly a dozen -- allowed me to focus on the source and extract the data this way.

Of the US programs, if my memory was correct, Ancestral Quest (the successor to Personal Ancestral File) had two levels of Source and Citation, which allowed you to create on Master Source (e.g. the 1881 Census) and then make the individual citations as children from that. It was the one that had the cleanest way of dealing with the lumper/splitter problem.

Since I work from the media -> source -> data entry, I find it easier to have one source per multimedia item, although if I'm using AS, I will go ahead and attach both pages if the census household is split across a page boundary. Since I first started using FH and AS, I have decided to store my images archival fashion, according to the place I got them. Because of this, I'm going to start over with data entry.

I don't plan to rename census images while using AS to reflect the head of the census household this time around. I am leaving my images as much as possible with the filename they are known by at the vendor website, since this helps me avoid downloading duplicates. For sites like findmypast, retaining the original filename often gives me the advantage of being able to browse them in the same order I would do on the website, as if I had access to the original book or folio. The only images I rename since I started saving images archive-fashion are the ones which download with generic names like "document.pdf", so I am forced to make up a name of my own.

I have many cases where I enter multiple households from the same census sheet, so this works best for me. It was discovering that I had brothers next door to each other in the census that made me break my habit of storing images by person; I discovered that I wasn't looking at the sources carefully enough. Since I plan to do a one-place study where I reconstruct families for the entire village, it doesn't make sense to have a copy of the image for every person or every household.

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