* Multiple instance of birth registration.

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brianlummis
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by brianlummis »

Paula

I have just looked on the GRO Index pages where you would normally order a certificate (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... search.asp) and could only find Drusilla Tar Hawes listed in the last quarter of 1843 in Wangford. Where did you get the other details from?

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tatewise
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by tatewise »

I think it is possible the birth was first registered with no father, and later the father was prepared to have his name added.
That will probbaly become apparent when you order the GRO Index entry that Bian mentions.
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by mjashby »

Paula,

If you found multiple GRO Index entries in the 'old original' GRO Indexes with the same Volume and Page numbers then it's probable that the Registrar's staff were simply trying to cover all bases, i.e. different interpretations of the child's forename(s) and/or surname. In contrast, re-registration with genuinely differing details, such as a child's birth being re-registered after marriage would normally have resulted in the cross-indexing of the old and new entries and only the newer registration being valid for ordering certificates. In contrast, I've found many marriages where there are multiple index entries, usually where one or both parties had been known by multiple names, e.g. Mary 'A', formerly 'B', previously 'C' whose father's name was given as John 'D'. I would guess that it's all down to how diligent the individual Superintendent Registrar's staff were with their indexing in pre-computerised days, i.e. anytime earlier than the 1990s!

I've only come across one 'genuine' double birth registration through my own research where all key details were identical; and that involved the same child being registered in two different Registration Districts about ten miles apart, probably first where the child was actually born (the mother presumably having returned 'home' for the birth of her first child) and then slightly later where the family actually lived.

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davidf
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by davidf »

If you access via FreeBMD it is possible to look at the images of the birth indices. In cases like these there are often manuscript explanations (usually a footnote mark, followed by a note at the foot of the page)
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by AdrianBruce »

Drusilla has four entries in the Oct-Dec 1843 Wangford registry, Vol 13 Page 498 viz: Drusilla Tar Leait, Drusilla Tar Hawes, Drusilla Tar Leail , and Drusilla Jane Hawes.
Leaving aside fantastic coincidences, this means that there is one certificate only, with four index entries.

Certainly I have seen multiple indexes where the clerks were not sure of the correct reading - a marriage certificate that I recently got was indexed under both "Roya" and "Roza" because the clerk couldn't decide whether the letter was a "y" or a curly "z".

Also, the Drusilla's parents were not married at the time of the registration - the original GRO indexing system recorded such children under both parents' surnames. (The child does not have a surname on the birth certificate until 1969).

When the GRO re-indexed birth certificates for the current GRO site - they changed the rules of indexing. To quote Antony M from the WDYTYA? Forum:
Births to unmarried parents in the old indexes would normally be indexed under both parents names.
Where a father is named on the entry (regardless of marital status) the new GRO index seems to only index under the that name.
So that explains why only the Leait, etc, variants don't bring up a result on the new GRO site - that's the mother's name, while Hawes is the father's, so is now the only one indexed. I consider this to be a right royal PITA as such children (of unmarried parents) were usually known by the mother's surname and you might have no idea of the father's name. (There is no Mother's Maiden Name in such a case, as she is not married and the MMN is the surname immediately before marriage.) (I cynically wonder whether the GRO realise that they changed the rules of the indexing game. I suspect not).
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by tatewise »

I've moved this thread to the Research Forum, which is where it belongs.

I find this confusing history difficult to resist a little research.
There are some misleading details given earlier regarding where places are.
Bungay and Wangford are in Suffolk and NOT Norfolk.

I have found entries for Sarah Ann, Drusilla, Priscilla & Samuel in the 1851 and 1861 Census records.
1851HO107 Piece 1820 Folio 485 Page 8 Ditchingham Dam, Ditchingham, Loddon, Norfolk, England
Sarah Ann Leart (b.1816) with Rosella (b.1844) and Paiscilla (b.1849) with strange relationships to Head
1861 RG09 Piece 1184 Folio 122 Page 24 Nethergate Street, St Marys, Wangford, Suffolk, England
Sarah Ann Laite (b.1817) with Druscilla (b.1844) and Priscilla (b.1849) and Samuel (b.1855)

Also have found Birth & Death records:

Birth: Drusilla Tar Hawes Q4 1843 Wangford, Suffolk Volume 13 Page 498
Birth: Drusilla Tar Leait Q4 1843 Wangford, Suffolk Volume 13 Page 498
Birth: Priscilla Lightning Q2 1848 Loddon, Norfolk Volume 13 Page 211
Birth: Samuel Lait Q1 1855 Wangford, Suffolk Volume 4A Page 660

Death: Sarah Ann Lait Q2 1865 Wangford, Suffolk Volume 4A Page 442
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by tatewise »

An interesting family history, Paula.
Perhaps what I should have said is the registraton district Wangford is registered in Suffolk.
It is important to make that distinction when searching for records, even if Bungay is mostly in Norfolk.

I now understand why Sarah was recorded as daughter-in-law of Susan in 1851 Census.
But that does not explain why Sarah's daughters are recorded as daughters of Head of house Susan, when they should be grand-daughters-in-law.

I found Samuel Hawes windower in 1851 Census at Beloy Bridge, Ditchingham, Loddon, Norfolk.
I think I found his son Samuel married in the 1861 Census, but cannot find Samuel senior.
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by tatewise »

A bit more digging in the 1851 to 1881 records has found the following that may be worth following up:

1851 HO107 Piece 1820 Folio 512 Page 15 at Belsy Bridge, Ditchingham, Loddon, Norfolk.
Samuel Hawes widower (b.1813 St Andrews) with son Samuel (b.1830) and daughters Mary (b.1833) & Alice (b.1847).

1859 (8th May) Samuel Hawes (age 43, father James) married Emily Greengrass (age 33) at Ditchingham, Norfolk.
Samuel Haws widower & Emily Greengrass Banns 27th Mar, 3rd & 10th Apr 1859 at Ditchingham.
1859 Q2 Civil Reg at Loddon Volume 4b Page 385 Samuel Hames and Samuel Greengrass must be an error!
(The other couple on that page Mary Ann Ward & James Pigney have a Parish Marriage entry.)

1861 RG09 Piece 1230 Folio 71 Page 12 at Radford (Belford?) Bridge, Ditchingham, Loddon, Norfolk.
(Surname mistranscribed as Raws.)
Samuel Haws (b.1815 St Andrews) married to Emily (b.1828 Beccles) with three children Mary A (b.1850 Beccles), Walter (b.1855 Beccles) & George (b.1860 Ditchingham).
1855 Q1 Walter Greengrass at Wangford Volume 4a Page 664
Have not found an entry for childen Mary and George.

1861 RG09 Piece 1230 Folio 77 Page 1 at Green, Ditchingham, Loddon, Norfolk.
Samuel Haws (b.1830) married to Mary with two children.

1863 Q2 (19th Apr age 35) Emily Hawes died at Loddon, Norfolk Volume 4b Page 149 (registerd twice).

1866 Q3 (9th Sep) Samuel Hawes (father James) married Mary A Dunnett at Loddon, Norfolk Volume 4b Page 351.
Samuel Hawes widower & Mary Ann Dunnet Banns 5th, 12th, 19th August 1866 at Ditchingham.

1871 RG10 Piece 1832 Folio 71 Page 8 at Belford Bridge Road, Ditchingham, Loddon, Norfolk.
(Surname mistranscribed as Howes.)
Samuel Hawes (b.1813 St Andrews) married to Mary A (b.1819 Broome) with two children Walter (b.1855 Beccles) & George (b.1860 Ditchingham) and granddaughter Anna Durrant (Dunnet?).

1881 RG11 Piece 1964 Folio 74 Page 16 at Belsey Bridge, Ditchingham, Loddon, Norfolk.
Samuel Hawes (b.1815 St Margarets) married to Mary Ann (b.1821 Broome).

The dates & places of birth for Samuel and his sons Walter & George match well.
He has had relationships with at least four women (1st wife Maria?, Sara Ann, Emily & Mary Ann).
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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TimTreeby
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by TimTreeby »

Samuel Haw(e)s Marries

Emily Greengrass - May 8th 1859 in Ditchingham.
Mary Dunnet - Sep 9th 1866 in Ditchingham.

Both Emily and Mary Ann are spinsters upon their Marriage to Samuel.

Both entries can be found in Norfolk Marriages on FMP.
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by E Wilcock »

I think it worth posting that I have always found the individuals at the GRO Help are very experienced at sorting out problem entries.
One is never isolated with the index books.
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by IanTS »

FYI ... As an aside to the above, in Scotland it is not unusual to find two separate Statutory Registrations of Births for the same child. I have quite a few in my family from the 1860’s and 1870’s. For example if the child’s mother returned to her parent’s home to give birth (not unusual for a first born) the birth would be registered within that Parish. Then, when the Mother and Child returned to their actual home the Birth was again registered within their home Parish with the Registrar noting that the Birth had already been registered “and transcribed” in another Parish. I have one child first registered in Selkirk Parish (child was born in the mother’s parent’s home) and then a week later registered again in Cambusnethan Parish, the actual home Parish of the Child’s mother and father, some 55 miles from Selkirk. Another example I have is where a Father, who was away from home working immediately after the birth, registered the birth of his child in the Parish he was working in, and then 3 weeks or so later registered the birth again in his home Parish ! Again the second Registrar noted it was a second (duplicate) registration. The joys of Scottish Registrations and Parishes (that is if it was registered in a certain Parish, it did not mean it happened in that Parish) :-)
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Re: Multiple instance of birth registration.

Post by themoudie »

Aye IanTS,

I too have encountered this 'double recording' of births in the Scottish Borders, with my wifes paternal family. Also, with my paternal mother's family in North Devon, in Parish records going back to the mid 1700's. It can be a bit disconcerting, but I attach both PR entry documents when making the entry into FH using AS, using the date of the initial baptism ceremony.

Happy hunting!

Bill
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