* Registration Districts?
Registration Districts?
At the moment when I use a Quarter date for BMD's I put 'Isle of Thanet Registration District, Kent, England' in the Place field, but I was wondering if just 'Kent, England' in the Place field followed by 'Isle of Thanet Registration District in the Address field would be better. Any comments or advice would be appreciated.
Margaret.
Margaret.
Re: Registration Districts?
The various plugins for recording GRO data (including the one I'm working on) would put Thanet, Kent, England in the place and Registration District in the address.
John Elvin
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Re: Registration Districts?
Because the eye tends to be drawn to the placename first, I think that a placename of "Kent" tends to convey the wrong impression. In virtually every case in my data, an address is a single building or a complex of adjacent buildings with a single purpose. An address of "Thanet RD" cuts across that. That, at any rate, is the way my brain works.
To me, one of the possible definitions of Placename is a jurisdiction - Kent, Nantwich Hundred, Congleton Poor Law Union (if it existed) and Thanet Registration District are all areas on a map with some sort of jurisdiction in some function, so I am personally happy with all those as placenames.
To me, one of the possible definitions of Placename is a jurisdiction - Kent, Nantwich Hundred, Congleton Poor Law Union (if it existed) and Thanet Registration District are all areas on a map with some sort of jurisdiction in some function, so I am personally happy with all those as placenames.
Adrian
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Re: Registration Districts?
Like Adrian, I don't consider a Registration District to be an address (because it's a district), so include it in the Place field.
Helen Wright
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Re: Registration Districts?
Interesting. That wasn't an option that had occurred to me beforehand. That way could cause me issues since I never like to Geocode registration districts - they're just too big for coordinates to make sense to me - and the Registration District looks just like the town to the geocoding routines if encoded in such a manner.
The other aspect that worries me is the potential disconnect between some Registration Districts and the place they are named for. For instance, Bucklow RD is named for a place pretty much in the middle of nowhere (apologies to its inhabitants!) - it was originally Altrincham RD. There are also compound names such as Bradford & Keighley RD - what would the placename be there? Whether these actually would cause anyone any issues, I don't know... It probably depends on whether you have them in your data.... An interesting problem!
Adrian
Re: Registration Districts?
Thank you John, Adrian & Helen, perhaps I'll just put Kent, England in the place field and the Registration District in Notes, it's mainly for my benefit but if I ever want to upload my research to an online site I wouldn't have thought that they'd accept a Registration District as a Place, they seem to like Town, County, Country.
Margaret.
PS Adrian your last post crossed mine, some of my BMD registrations are in Langport, Bridgwater, Yeovil yet they are all for people in who were born, married or died in Somerton which has never had it's own Registration District.
Margaret.
PS Adrian your last post crossed mine, some of my BMD registrations are in Langport, Bridgwater, Yeovil yet they are all for people in who were born, married or died in Somerton which has never had it's own Registration District.
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Re: Registration Districts?
Doesn't the Registration District actually identify the Registration Office where the event was registered?
So instead of Registration District perhaps the Address could be the Registration Office, which might be a more accurate indication of where the BMD event was registered and quite distinct from where the event happened.
Taking Adrians point, the Registration Office can be pinpoint geocoded.
So instead of Registration District perhaps the Address could be the Registration Office, which might be a more accurate indication of where the BMD event was registered and quite distinct from where the event happened.
Taking Adrians point, the Registration Office can be pinpoint geocoded.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: Registration Districts?
In many cases the place entered in the birth, marriage or death event by the GRO entry will be temporary until further facts are found which refine the place, e.g. a church record or birth place given in a census, so for me until the further facts are found, recording it as an area works.
I often use https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/index.html to cross check if an place falls within the registration district (it lists all the parishes and gives the dates). It shows Somerton parish has seen many changes. It's registration districts are:
1837-1936 Langport
1936-1974 Bridgewater
1974-2003 Yeovil
2003-2007 South Somerset
2008- Somerset
I often use https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/index.html to cross check if an place falls within the registration district (it lists all the parishes and gives the dates). It shows Somerton parish has seen many changes. It's registration districts are:
1837-1936 Langport
1936-1974 Bridgewater
1974-2003 Yeovil
2003-2007 South Somerset
2008- Somerset
John Elvin
Re: Registration Districts?
I don't think that works as many districts have sub-districts (the resource I've just linked lists them, Yeovil had Coker; Ilchester; Martock; Somerton; South Petherton; Wincanton; Yeovil sub-districts), each will have had their own office and the GRO index entry doesn't show which one.tatewise wrote: ↑14 Oct 2024 10:05 Doesn't the Registration District actually identify the Registration Office where the event was registered?
So instead of Registration District perhaps the Address could be the Registration Office, which might be a more accurate indication of where the BMD event was registered and quite distinct from where the event happened.
Taking Adrians point, the Registration Office can be pinpoint geocoded.
John Elvin
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Re: Registration Districts?
Further to John's point, even if you do know the sub-district, finding out the exact location of the office (which has probably moved a few times over the years) is difficult, therefore it probably can't be 'pinpoint geocoded'.
Anyway, that approach means creating a separate registration fact for the BMD event, in addition to the event itself. It doesn't solve the question of what to put in the place/address fields for the event itself.
Anyway, that approach means creating a separate registration fact for the BMD event, in addition to the event itself. It doesn't solve the question of what to put in the place/address fields for the event itself.
Lorna
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Re: Registration Districts?
If you check UKBMD that will give you the registration district. Not all Registration districts are on here some don't give permission to tnscribe. No harm in checking to see if name you are looking for is there. If the name you are looking for is a marriage it will list the churh the event took place. The details give a registration code where you can order the certificate which would be an exact copy of he original
Victor
Victor
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Re: Registration Districts?
Just to correct this, the Record Civil Registration Data (UK) DEA plus the Registration District in the Place.
Helen Wright
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Re: Registration Districts?
Gosh I didn't realize that my post would generate such a lot of comments. with regard to the Registration Districts in Somerset (I'm sure that other areas are the same), my daughter was registered in Taunton because the Registrar visited the hospital and I registered her there. My husband was registered in Wells because the hospital he was born in was in that area. At one time the Registrar had an office in Somerton (which he visited once a week or so) which was where my husband registered his father's death, but the Registration District is Yeovil. Obviously I know that all these people lived in Somerton but others don't, just as I don't know the address of distant relations in my tree. Until I started this post and read all the comments I didn't realize just how complicated it all was - more thought needed I think!!!
Thank you everyone for all your help and ideas.
Margaret.
Thank you everyone for all your help and ideas.
Margaret.
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Re: Registration Districts?
Not wishing to drag the correspondence on, but I fear that recent practices with Registration may cut across how it was done in the 1800s (say), meaning that assumptions from the earlier may not apply to the later, particularly with respect to the physical place.
My (potentially flawed) understanding of the practice of Registrars of Marriages was that (to start with) only the Superintendent Registrar had the authority to conduct marriages. Yet the 1910 Kelly's Directory for Cheshire has three Registrars of Marriages in the Nantwich Registration District - at Crewe, Bunbury and Willaston (Nantwich). It may be that the Registrar of Marriages did all the work while the Superintendent Registrar had to attend all marriages in their RD in order to authorise them, in which case it might be that the marriage physically took place at one of the 3 places named - but the certificates (at least in my case) don't make it clear. For my maternal GPs, I had to deduce where it was from the name of the Registrar of Marriages. I might even have got it right...
I also had a similar situation to the OP in her post above. My father's death is registered as being in Cheshire East RD, Cheshire East Sub-District, but I know I registered the death at the hospital (in Cheshire East) where he died. I'd guess that the Registrars are now fairly mobile attending anywhere in the (half-county of) Cheshire East - with never a sign of the geographical location on the certificates. (Unless anyone knows better!) For these reasons, I prefer to treat the Reg District (or Reg Sub-District) as a "place" that is a jurisdiction, rather than a physical point on a map. (Anyone with urban Reg Districts in big cities may think differently given how concentrated such areas might be).
My (potentially flawed) understanding of the practice of Registrars of Marriages was that (to start with) only the Superintendent Registrar had the authority to conduct marriages. Yet the 1910 Kelly's Directory for Cheshire has three Registrars of Marriages in the Nantwich Registration District - at Crewe, Bunbury and Willaston (Nantwich). It may be that the Registrar of Marriages did all the work while the Superintendent Registrar had to attend all marriages in their RD in order to authorise them, in which case it might be that the marriage physically took place at one of the 3 places named - but the certificates (at least in my case) don't make it clear. For my maternal GPs, I had to deduce where it was from the name of the Registrar of Marriages. I might even have got it right...
I also had a similar situation to the OP in her post above. My father's death is registered as being in Cheshire East RD, Cheshire East Sub-District, but I know I registered the death at the hospital (in Cheshire East) where he died. I'd guess that the Registrars are now fairly mobile attending anywhere in the (half-county of) Cheshire East - with never a sign of the geographical location on the certificates. (Unless anyone knows better!) For these reasons, I prefer to treat the Reg District (or Reg Sub-District) as a "place" that is a jurisdiction, rather than a physical point on a map. (Anyone with urban Reg Districts in big cities may think differently given how concentrated such areas might be).
Adrian
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Re: Registration Districts?
I'm a big advocate for keeping it simple. A Registration District is a District, no matter how large or small. As Lorna said, offices moved and multiplied and the exact location where an event was REGISTERED is rarely important. (Marriages are different, but for marriages I care about, I would normally get thecertificate or a Prish record anyway).AdrianBruce wrote: ↑14 Oct 2024 16:28 Anyone with urban Reg Districts in big cities may think differently given how concentrated such areas might be.
Helen Wright
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Re: Registration Districts?
Agreed. I only realised afterwards that where my father's death was registered is not material - at least, not the way I work. I was extrapolating from the difficulties in deciding where a civil marriage in England and Wales was registered and therefore took place, without realising I'd got into an irrelevant question for that particular event.ColeValleyGirl wrote: ↑14 Oct 2024 16:46 ... As Lorna said, offices moved and multiplied and the exact location where an event was REGISTERED is rarely important. (Marriages are different, but for marriages I care about, I would normally get thecertificate or a Prish record anyway).
Talking of civil marriages in England and Wales - does anyone know if there's any clue on the certificate if a marriage took place in a hotel registered for those purposes, or does it look like a straight register office event? Not that I have any...
Adrian
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Re: Registration Districts?
This is a bit off-topic but for England and Wales marriages which took place in an Anglican church there is a technique for working out which church it was, based on the information in the index. This enables precise recording of the location, not just the RD, without the need to order a certificate.
It’s still work in progress, so not all data needed for all marriages is yet available.
See https://one-name.org/marriage-locator/
The principle is explained here https://one-name.org/marriage-locator-principles/
It’s still work in progress, so not all data needed for all marriages is yet available.
See https://one-name.org/marriage-locator/
The principle is explained here https://one-name.org/marriage-locator-principles/
Lorna
Re: Registration Districts?
Thank you Lorna, I can usually get birth and maybe death places from Census returns but marriages could be anywhere or in almost any Church so that marriage locator will be very useful.
Margaret.
Margaret.
Re: Registration Districts?
In England/Wales, marriage at "licenced venues", i.e. places other than a registration office, became possible from 1994 and where that is the case the name of the venue will be shown on the register as the place the marriage took place.AdrianBruce wrote: ↑14 Oct 2024 17:22 Talking of civil marriages in England and Wales - does anyone know if there's any clue on the certificate if a marriage took place in a hotel registered for those purposes, or does it look like a straight register office event? Not that I have any...
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Re: Registration Districts?
Ah - thanks for that - I had no idea and I didn't like the worst case scenario.
Adrian
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Re: Registration Districts?
A word of caution that you cannot even assume the county from the RD. The RD boundaries were not originally coterminous with county boundaries; that is a much more recent development. For example, Kings Norton RD (one that frequently crops up in my tree) was situated "in the counties of Warwick and Worcester". There are many similar RDs, and I even have a couple that straddle three counties.
Peter Collier
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Re: Registration Districts?
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/index.html which I posted earlier gives the county details as well as the parishes, both the nominal county for the district and for each parish in the district.
John Elvin
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Re: Registration Districts?
Although it does depend on which "county" you're referring toPeter Collier wrote: ↑15 Oct 2024 12:14 A word of caution that you cannot even assume the county from the RD. The RD boundaries were not originally coterminous with county boundaries; that is a much more recent development. For example, Kings Norton RD (one that frequently crops up in my tree) was situated "in the counties of Warwick and Worcester". There are many similar RDs, and I even have a couple that straddle three counties.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_countyThe Births and Deaths Registration Act 1836 divided England and Wales into registration districts. The districts were not innovations, however, but were identical to the poor law unions already in existence. Unions had been formed by the grouping parishes surrounding towns in which a workhouse was situated without reference to geographical county boundaries. Many PLUs included areas in two or more civil counties.
Registration counties (also known as poor law counties) were formed by the aggregation of registration districts by reference to which county the workhouse was situated in. Accordingly, the boundaries of registration counties rarely coincided with those of the civil county. Attempts to establish a single set of county boundaries in the 1880s were unsuccessful.
The registration counties were used in the compilation of census results from 1851 to 1911.
If you look at the King's Norton Reg District on https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/ ... orton.html, the Registration County for the whole RD is Worcestershire until 1912. The individual civil parishes are in 3 historic counties.
And if you look at the Ancestry pages for the 1901 for the first ED (10) in Smethwick, the pages are stamped with Administrative County of Staffordshire. I suspect that's the county we'd use in most cases. But I'd never realised before that the images have Worcestershire >
Smethwick > ... > District 10 on the top - and you have to browse via Worcestershire, not Staffs. So the browse goes via the Registration Counties, not the historic or administrative counties.
As I implied - I'd never use the Registration Counties but it might explain why some civil parishes are not in the expected counties - not Ancestry's fault. For once...
Adrian
Re: Registration Districts?
Helen;ColeValleyGirl wrote: ↑14 Oct 2024 16:46I'm a big advocate for keeping it simple. A Registration District is a District, no matter how large or small. As Lorna said, offices moved and multiplied and the exact location where an event was REGISTERED is rarely important. (Marriages are different, but for marriages I care about, I would normally get thecertificate or a Prish record anyway).AdrianBruce wrote: ↑14 Oct 2024 16:28 Anyone with urban Reg Districts in big cities may think differently given how concentrated such areas might be.
Just a note...
I found this thread to be interesting, because parishes are also a "district" of sorts. Parish registers can record any event that happened in the parish and not necessarily just in the church itself (although they often do happen on the church grounds). I have baptisms, marriages and burials that I know were conducted at locations other than the church itself. Unfortunately; the church register has a tendency to record everything as if it happened at the parish church itself. This means that considering a parish register and using the associated church to imply a precise geographic location may not be accurate in all cases. So; I wonder how people are recording the events related to parishes?
Gary Gauthier
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Re: Registration Districts?
If I know the event took place in the church, I use the church as part of the place (I don't use the separate Address field, so that I can geocode to building level). (We've had a whole other thread about locating 'which church within a parish' so I won't rehash that).
I do have at least one burial in a parish register that was actually in the Public Cemetery just down the road. It's unclear whether there was a ceremony in the church first, but he was definitely in the public cemetery... until his grave was reused. So, his burial place if the public cemetery, and the source is the PR.
Private baptisms are also always an unknown, but what tends to be in the CoE registers are the 'reception into the church' after the baptism, and that will by definition be in the church.
And if a marriage appears in a PR, it happened in the church, as far as I know; Antony M already confirmed that in the UK at least, the marriage certificate will always state the actual location of the marriage. (We will pass hastily over Fleet marriages, averting our eyes and whistling loudly).
Helen Wright
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