* Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
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- Famous
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Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Hello,
When I export my TNG data through gedcom, it generates ASSO tags. When these tags (associated persons) are related to persons, they are translated correctly by FH. But when they are associated to a marriage, something goes wrong: see attachment
The referred individuals are created as they should, but the link between the persons (e.g. I10159) and the ASSO tag is not established.
How can I correct this ?
Thank you in advance.
When I export my TNG data through gedcom, it generates ASSO tags. When these tags (associated persons) are related to persons, they are translated correctly by FH. But when they are associated to a marriage, something goes wrong: see attachment
The referred individuals are created as they should, but the link between the persons (e.g. I10159) and the ASSO tag is not established.
How can I correct this ?
Thank you in advance.
- Attachments
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- image.png (123.77 KiB) Viewed 1316 times
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
- tatewise
- Megastar
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Unfortunately, TNG is misusing the ASSO tag, which is not allowed in FAMily records by the GEDCOM specification.
Anyway, ASSOciating a best man with a FAMily is not entirely rational.
The best man should be associated with the Marriage Event.
BTW: It is rather unusual to have four best men for the one marriage!
I think you only have two options:
Anyway, ASSOciating a best man with a FAMily is not entirely rational.
The best man should be associated with the Marriage Event.
BTW: It is rather unusual to have four best men for the one marriage!
I think you only have two options:
- Move the ASSO tags from the FAMily record to the INDIvidial record of the HUSBand.
- Change the ASSO tags to Fact Witness _SHAR tags with ROLE best man for the MARRiage Event.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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- Famous
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Thank you for your support !
TNG is what it is
It does indeed not make sense to associate people to a family, and TNG does not allow to link associates to a marriage.
I will go for the _shar tag with role best man for the marriage event, I think.
(My "best man" was a quick translation from french: in fact these are for witnesses at a marriage)
TNG is what it is
It does indeed not make sense to associate people to a family, and TNG does not allow to link associates to a marriage.
I will go for the _shar tag with role best man for the marriage event, I think.
(My "best man" was a quick translation from french: in fact these are for witnesses at a marriage)
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
There has been a lot of previous discussion about TNG and associations / witnesses. Darrin at TNG believes he is right and has pretty much said he will not change the way they are implemented. I suspect this is because it would throw a lot of people's trees into disarray if they were to update to a TNG version that had this change in it (as you probably know, you can maintain trees in TNG directly rather than just import Gedcom files). As you say, it is what it is. I have disabled showing witnesses on my TNG tree.
Adrian Cook
Researching Cook, Summers, Phipps and Bradford, mainly in Wales and the South West of England
Researching Cook, Summers, Phipps and Bradford, mainly in Wales and the South West of England
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- Famous
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
It would be interesting to post a list of the do's and don't do's when you combine TNG and FH.
I am quite happy with using FH ---> TNG with FH as the place where I maintain the data, but I discover some caveats with sources, custom tags, media etc.
I am quite happy with using FH ---> TNG with FH as the place where I maintain the data, but I discover some caveats with sources, custom tags, media etc.
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
- tatewise
- Megastar
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- Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Have you reviewed the Export Gedcom File plugin help pages?
The main page is at https://pluginstore.family-historian.co ... edcom-file
The destination advice is at https://pluginstore.family-historian.co ... ode-advice
The TNG specific advice is at https://pluginstore.family-historian.co ... generation
If after studying that you have further questions then please ask in the Exporting forum.
Have a look in the Exporting forum and Search for TNG to find lots of threads full of advice.
I suggest you post further questions about exporting to TNG in the Exporting forum.
The main page is at https://pluginstore.family-historian.co ... edcom-file
The destination advice is at https://pluginstore.family-historian.co ... ode-advice
The TNG specific advice is at https://pluginstore.family-historian.co ... generation
If after studying that you have further questions then please ask in the Exporting forum.
Have a look in the Exporting forum and Search for TNG to find lots of threads full of advice.
I suggest you post further questions about exporting to TNG in the Exporting forum.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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- Famous
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Wow ! Impressive documentation. I will be quiet for some time reading it.
Thank you again. (I suppose you wrote it)
Thank you again. (I suppose you wrote it)
I started with Reunion > 30 years ago, later TMG.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
I now use FH as main software, TNG to share my data.
Transkribus to decipher old texts.
Genealogica Grafica, TCGB and My Family Tree to view & check my data. And Genopro for its layered reports.
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- Silver
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Hi Olivier,
Your post is a bit old but I just discovered it and thought you might still be interested in exchanging on this subject.
The problem you met when exporting a Gedcom file from TNG with ASSO tags initially comes from a major weakness of the Gedcom standard versions used as references by most genealogy software designers, i.e. versions 5.5 and 5.5.1 .
Gedcom 7.0 is handling the issue much better but is sadly not recognised as an official standard, at least yet.
Indeed, associating events with individuals should be a basic feature of the standard. We need it for witnesses, godparents, or any other reason for the presence of an individual at an event. Still, amazingly, this type of association is impossible if you strictly follow the standard!
Versions 5.5 and 5.5.1 clearly specify that associations can only relate individuals!
Strangely, a TYPE tag exists in version 5.5, which is pointless since the only type of record an association can link is the Individual record, and explains why it was removed in version 5.5.1 for consistency.
I've seen in another post a reference to a Gedcom standard (other than version 7.0 obviously) that would allow the association to other types of records, including Families, Notes, Sources, and Objects, but the version number was not mentioned, and anyway as versions 5.5 and 5.5.1 are the currently used standards, this doesn't help !
And even if this became the new standard, it still doesn't answer the major need which is to allow the association with events, which are not in the list of available record's TYPE.
So, this basic weakness has forced software designers to find alternatives!
What many have done is simply to allow associations between individuals and any type of record including events, which implies allowing ASSO tags at the Event's level. But as it is not conform to Gedcom 5.5 and 5.5.1, it makes exported files not readable by some softwares (such as FH in your case) which strictly follow the standard.
What they should have done is using a custom tag such as _ASSO instead of ASSO, which would have been understood by their software and readable by others. But then, only softwares able to decrypt the _ASSO tags could use the information, so they decided to try forcing a new standard with ASSO tags, at the cost of excluding softwares that wouldn't adopt it.
My view is that the fault comes from the Gedcom association which is leaving us with a very poorly designed standard that does not even answer basic needs such as the one just discussed, which therefore cannot be followed by developers!
Your post is a bit old but I just discovered it and thought you might still be interested in exchanging on this subject.
The problem you met when exporting a Gedcom file from TNG with ASSO tags initially comes from a major weakness of the Gedcom standard versions used as references by most genealogy software designers, i.e. versions 5.5 and 5.5.1 .
Gedcom 7.0 is handling the issue much better but is sadly not recognised as an official standard, at least yet.
Indeed, associating events with individuals should be a basic feature of the standard. We need it for witnesses, godparents, or any other reason for the presence of an individual at an event. Still, amazingly, this type of association is impossible if you strictly follow the standard!
Versions 5.5 and 5.5.1 clearly specify that associations can only relate individuals!
Strangely, a TYPE tag exists in version 5.5, which is pointless since the only type of record an association can link is the Individual record, and explains why it was removed in version 5.5.1 for consistency.
I've seen in another post a reference to a Gedcom standard (other than version 7.0 obviously) that would allow the association to other types of records, including Families, Notes, Sources, and Objects, but the version number was not mentioned, and anyway as versions 5.5 and 5.5.1 are the currently used standards, this doesn't help !
And even if this became the new standard, it still doesn't answer the major need which is to allow the association with events, which are not in the list of available record's TYPE.
So, this basic weakness has forced software designers to find alternatives!
What many have done is simply to allow associations between individuals and any type of record including events, which implies allowing ASSO tags at the Event's level. But as it is not conform to Gedcom 5.5 and 5.5.1, it makes exported files not readable by some softwares (such as FH in your case) which strictly follow the standard.
What they should have done is using a custom tag such as _ASSO instead of ASSO, which would have been understood by their software and readable by others. But then, only softwares able to decrypt the _ASSO tags could use the information, so they decided to try forcing a new standard with ASSO tags, at the cost of excluding softwares that wouldn't adopt it.
My view is that the fault comes from the Gedcom association which is leaving us with a very poorly designed standard that does not even answer basic needs such as the one just discussed, which therefore cannot be followed by developers!
- tatewise
- Megastar
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Welcome to the FHUG.
IMO you have misunderstood the ASSO tag definition in GEDCOM 7.0.
It does allow the ASSO tag to be applied to facts as well as individuals.
See Page 38 where the ASSO tag is shown subordinate to the BAPM event to associate @I2@ as the clergyman:
Those products include Family Historian, GedSite, Heredis, Legacy, My Family Tree, and RootsMagic.
GRAMPS uses _WITN instead. TNG also supports _SHAR but slightly differently from all those others.
IMO you have misunderstood the ASSO tag definition in GEDCOM 7.0.
It does allow the ASSO tag to be applied to facts as well as individuals.
See Page 38 where the ASSO tag is shown subordinate to the BAPM event to associate @I2@ as the clergyman:
Several popular products support a de facto equivalent to that association and usually referred to as a Shared or Witness Fact by using the custom tag _SHAR in exactly the same way as ASSO is used above with BAPM.0 @I1@ INDI
1 ASSO @VOID@
2 PHRASE Mr Stockdale
2 ROLE OTHER
3 PHRASE Teacher
1 BAPM
2 DATE 1930
2 ASSO @I2@
3 ROLE CLERGY
Those products include Family Historian, GedSite, Heredis, Legacy, My Family Tree, and RootsMagic.
GRAMPS uses _WITN instead. TNG also supports _SHAR but slightly differently from all those others.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Hi Tatewise,
Thanks for your quick reply but it seems you read my post a bit too fast.
Indeed, I mentioned Gedcom 7.0 was properly taking care of the issue (associating individuals to facts) but Gedcom 7.0 is not the standard currently followed by software developpers, which is probably regrettable, but also understandable considering the fundamental weaknesses of previous versions.
But thanks for your reply anyway.
Thanks for your quick reply but it seems you read my post a bit too fast.
Indeed, I mentioned Gedcom 7.0 was properly taking care of the issue (associating individuals to facts) but Gedcom 7.0 is not the standard currently followed by software developpers, which is probably regrettable, but also understandable considering the fundamental weaknesses of previous versions.
But thanks for your reply anyway.
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Dear Tatewise,
Your reply perfectly illustrates the issues raised by a standard which cannot be followed by developers due to basic weaknesses.
Indeed, you mention some developers managed to agree on a custom tag (_SHAR) following the same rules as an update of Gedcom standard (version 7.0) which is not an accepted standard, others use another custom tag (_WITN), with slight differences. A few others use ASSO tag as per Gedcom 7.0, or as a Gedcom 5.5.1/7.0 mix, while most softwares still use the old ASSO version in conformity with Gedcom 5.5 and 5.5.1.
No surprise this leads to confusion and compatibility issues.
An agreed (I mean by everyone) standard of good quality is a necessity, as it is for any professional activity.
We all hope it will soon be the case.
Your reply perfectly illustrates the issues raised by a standard which cannot be followed by developers due to basic weaknesses.
Indeed, you mention some developers managed to agree on a custom tag (_SHAR) following the same rules as an update of Gedcom standard (version 7.0) which is not an accepted standard, others use another custom tag (_WITN), with slight differences. A few others use ASSO tag as per Gedcom 7.0, or as a Gedcom 5.5.1/7.0 mix, while most softwares still use the old ASSO version in conformity with Gedcom 5.5 and 5.5.1.
No surprise this leads to confusion and compatibility issues.
An agreed (I mean by everyone) standard of good quality is a necessity, as it is for any professional activity.
We all hope it will soon be the case.
- tatewise
- Megastar
- Posts: 29154
- Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
I'm not sure whether you mean the weaknesses are in the GEDCOM standard or in the developers!Carteyrols wrote: ↑12 Oct 2024 12:35 Dear Tatewise,
Your reply perfectly illustrates the issues raised by a standard which cannot be followed by developers due to basic weaknesses.
In my experience of writing my Export Gedcom File plugin over several years, many products do not implement correctly even some of the well defined features of the GEDCOM specifications, which for a software developer should be straightforward. I know there are some ambiguities in some parts of the GEDCOM specs but they are fairly well documented by such as Tamura Jones. Many products do not even check the GEDC version in the HEAD record and just assume the structure is in the format their product prefers rather than convert it.
The misuse of the ASSO tag by TNG is a classic example of abusing the standard.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
Hi TateWise,
I fully agree there are good and bad developers and some obviously are not careful enough particularly regarding the compatibility of their exported files.
But the weakness I am referring to is the poor design of the Gedcom standard which obviously was designed by people who had little experience in database management, and haven't been careful enough when it comes to checking the structure would work in all common situations, and here I am not talking of unavoidable rare exceptions. The association between individuals and facts is one example (ok Gedcom 7.0 handles it now but way too late!) but there are many others, such as the impossibility to have a shared source citation (I don't mean a shared source, I think you got me) which would be helpful in so many cases, typically when the birth of the father is mentioned in a marriage act (1 source citation and 2 events attached, but too bad a source citation cannot be shared by 2 events, only the source can be !). How can such simple things have been missed by people in charge of designing a world standard !?
Ok we have to accept these weaknesses and it's our job to find acceptable workarounds but, in some cases such as the associations matter, there are no good ways ! Any choice leads to either a risk of incompatibility or the impossibility to exchange data with other softwares that made other choices.
Well, I guess I had to spit it out but don't worry: I won't complain about it any more ! It is as it is, back to work!
And congratulations for the quality of this forum !
I fully agree there are good and bad developers and some obviously are not careful enough particularly regarding the compatibility of their exported files.
But the weakness I am referring to is the poor design of the Gedcom standard which obviously was designed by people who had little experience in database management, and haven't been careful enough when it comes to checking the structure would work in all common situations, and here I am not talking of unavoidable rare exceptions. The association between individuals and facts is one example (ok Gedcom 7.0 handles it now but way too late!) but there are many others, such as the impossibility to have a shared source citation (I don't mean a shared source, I think you got me) which would be helpful in so many cases, typically when the birth of the father is mentioned in a marriage act (1 source citation and 2 events attached, but too bad a source citation cannot be shared by 2 events, only the source can be !). How can such simple things have been missed by people in charge of designing a world standard !?
Ok we have to accept these weaknesses and it's our job to find acceptable workarounds but, in some cases such as the associations matter, there are no good ways ! Any choice leads to either a risk of incompatibility or the impossibility to exchange data with other softwares that made other choices.
Well, I guess I had to spit it out but don't worry: I won't complain about it any more ! It is as it is, back to work!
And congratulations for the quality of this forum !
Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
In retrospect, yes the GEDCOM Standard could have included an ASSO at the "Fact/Event" level but that was not in the original design criteria nor was having a "witness" in 1990's though of as an important function of a the church's genealogy program. Most genealogists were not worried about who witnessed an event, they were (and for the most part still are) only worried about who begot whom, when and where!But the weakness I am referring to is the poor design of the Gedcom standard which obviously was designed by people who had little experience in database management, and haven't been careful enough when it comes to checking the structure would work in all common situations, and here I am not talking of unavoidable rare exceptions.
The church had plenty of good database designers working for them at about 1990 it was not a "common situation" for a genealogist to care about witnesses. Besides that, GEDCOM was not meant to be a database design at all, it was a data transfer protocol for importing a Genealogy of individuals into a master database of relationship of family members as defined by the church!
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Re: Importing ASSO tags from TNG gedcom
I can't follow you there but the exchange was interesting.
All the best to you and the forum's team!
All the best to you and the forum's team!