* England & Wales census records
Re: England & Wales census records
Teresa;
When FMP doesn't have the ED, it seems to be because the image is missing or damaged and they don't know what it is.
However; If one has the folio, then having the ED is just nice to have.
One should still be able to relocate the census image.
Just wish A.S. had a bit more flexibility in it's ability to generate filenames.
A.S. has only two fields into which one can place the data relating to the series, piece, folio, page and RD/SD/ED data.
Often; one needs to also include other misc. info in those fields.
Collectively; my A.S. fields have the embedded information that is needed for my filenames, but I can't isolate and re-combine the elements for use.
So; the only pragmatic way to name my files seems to be to do it prior to import into FH7.
Unfortunately; it means I'm not able to do things in one pass (as intended).
That's not to imply that Nick should add more to A.S.
It's just something that I'm having difficulty addressing in an easy manner.
When FMP doesn't have the ED, it seems to be because the image is missing or damaged and they don't know what it is.
However; If one has the folio, then having the ED is just nice to have.
One should still be able to relocate the census image.
Just wish A.S. had a bit more flexibility in it's ability to generate filenames.
A.S. has only two fields into which one can place the data relating to the series, piece, folio, page and RD/SD/ED data.
Often; one needs to also include other misc. info in those fields.
Collectively; my A.S. fields have the embedded information that is needed for my filenames, but I can't isolate and re-combine the elements for use.
So; the only pragmatic way to name my files seems to be to do it prior to import into FH7.
Unfortunately; it means I'm not able to do things in one pass (as intended).
That's not to imply that Nick should add more to A.S.
It's just something that I'm having difficulty addressing in an easy manner.
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
Hunting History in the Wild!
Re: England & Wales census records
Teresa's post brings up an important question...
Is there a ED list that shows the corresponding range of folio numbers on a series/piece? (I know this is a long-shot)
Sometimes I have an ED Description image that is damaged and is missing the ED number or folio number.
It would be handy in set up filenames for the header images and census pages so they stay together.
Is there a ED list that shows the corresponding range of folio numbers on a series/piece? (I know this is a long-shot)
Sometimes I have an ED Description image that is damaged and is missing the ED number or folio number.
It would be handy in set up filenames for the header images and census pages so they stay together.
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
Hunting History in the Wild!
Re: England & Wales census records
As previously explained, on FMP it is possible to get close to that with this type of listing, by specifying the Registration District/Sub District of interest:
Re: England & Wales census records
Thank you. I must have missed that mention. Will look again and try it.
Later note: There doesn't seem to be the same capability for years prior to 1921
Later note: There doesn't seem to be the same capability for years prior to 1921
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
Hunting History in the Wild!
Re: England & Wales census records
Yes, you are correct; the same level of analytical detail isn't available for the earlier censuses, so the only options seem to be internet searches for any available data, unless you are fortunate enough to be able to visit The National Archives, which will hold whatever surviving high level guidance was produced at the time.
I have managed to find something on the 1851 Census which might be useful here: https://reshare.ukdataservice.ac.uk/852948/ ; and the individual Census Registration Districts will, of course, match with a 'list' of the Superintendent Registrars Districts that existed in each Census Year - https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/index.html, but it would certainly not be a straightforward or a quick task to make the necessary adjustments for how the many boundary changes would have impacted on individual Census Year coverage at the District Level without access to the District information that would have been prepared for and by the individual Superintendent Registrars. Back in the 1990's this was the sort of information Local Family History Societies and sometimes Reference Libraries/County Records Offices frequently produced or held as background for their own areas and Census transcription activities, but those days seem very far away now!
Edit: Late thought: If you have access to a 'local' LDS research facility they may have some information not published on the commercial Family History sites, so it might be worthwhile searching the LDS FamilySearch Catalogue: e.g. https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library for the 1881 Census material includes:
Surname index (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086481
Birthplace [strays] index (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086482
Census place index (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086483
Census as enumerated (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086484
Miscellaneous notes (2 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086485
Vessels/ships list (1 fiche) Family History Library British Fiche 6086486
List of institutions (1 fiche) Family History Library British Fiche 6086487
Mervyn
I have managed to find something on the 1851 Census which might be useful here: https://reshare.ukdataservice.ac.uk/852948/ ; and the individual Census Registration Districts will, of course, match with a 'list' of the Superintendent Registrars Districts that existed in each Census Year - https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/index.html, but it would certainly not be a straightforward or a quick task to make the necessary adjustments for how the many boundary changes would have impacted on individual Census Year coverage at the District Level without access to the District information that would have been prepared for and by the individual Superintendent Registrars. Back in the 1990's this was the sort of information Local Family History Societies and sometimes Reference Libraries/County Records Offices frequently produced or held as background for their own areas and Census transcription activities, but those days seem very far away now!
Edit: Late thought: If you have access to a 'local' LDS research facility they may have some information not published on the commercial Family History sites, so it might be worthwhile searching the LDS FamilySearch Catalogue: e.g. https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library for the 1881 Census material includes:
Surname index (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086481
Birthplace [strays] index (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086482
Census place index (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086483
Census as enumerated (124 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086484
Miscellaneous notes (2 fiches) Family History Library British Fiche 6086485
Vessels/ships list (1 fiche) Family History Library British Fiche 6086486
List of institutions (1 fiche) Family History Library British Fiche 6086487
Mervyn
Re: England & Wales census records
Thanks, Mervyn. I'll look into what you noted.
I've found a way to tease out the needed data and have about half of all my record images appropriately named.
I've found a way to tease out the needed data and have about half of all my record images appropriately named.
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
Hunting History in the Wild!
Re: England & Wales census records
When naming my files for the 1841 Census of England, I've run into something with which I could use some assistance.
FMP gives the Registration District, but not the Hundred.
TNA (UK) shows the Hundred, but not the Registration District.
Ancestry gives the Registration District and Registration Sub-district, as well as the Hundred.
TNA (UK) says; "The returns are topographically arranged in alphabetical order of counties and within each county by hundreds."
How are the Registration District, and Hundred related?
Is the hundred just a convention TNA (UK) used internally for organizing their records, but the actual census was actually organized by Registration District?
FMP gives the Registration District, but not the Hundred.
TNA (UK) shows the Hundred, but not the Registration District.
Ancestry gives the Registration District and Registration Sub-district, as well as the Hundred.
TNA (UK) says; "The returns are topographically arranged in alphabetical order of counties and within each county by hundreds."
How are the Registration District, and Hundred related?
Is the hundred just a convention TNA (UK) used internally for organizing their records, but the actual census was actually organized by Registration District?
Gary Gauthier
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Re: England & Wales census records
The fact that I had never heard of Hundreds in the context of the 1841, would suggest to me that they're not that important. (Or I'm being a touch arrogant, of course! )
The TNA quote would suggest an internal convention of how to arrange the Registration Districts (and their Sub-Districts) in each county. There has to be some method of working out how to physically arrange the Reg District books.
To give an example, there was an Eddisbury Hundred in Cheshire (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundreds_ ... ndreds.svg) but no Eddisbury Reg District. Maybe they (TNA? The census organisers?) collected the appropriate Reg Districts together purely and simply as a physical thing - but any Reg District crossing Eddisbury Hundred (if there was one in 1841) would have remained in one piece for analytical purposes.
The TNA quote would suggest an internal convention of how to arrange the Registration Districts (and their Sub-Districts) in each county. There has to be some method of working out how to physically arrange the Reg District books.
To give an example, there was an Eddisbury Hundred in Cheshire (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundreds_ ... ndreds.svg) but no Eddisbury Reg District. Maybe they (TNA? The census organisers?) collected the appropriate Reg Districts together purely and simply as a physical thing - but any Reg District crossing Eddisbury Hundred (if there was one in 1841) would have remained in one piece for analytical purposes.
Adrian
Re: England & Wales census records
Adrian;
All I can say from looking at the TNA (UK) is that there is no concept of registration districts mentioned for the 1841 census.
The TNA pieces seem to use the hierarchy of County/Hundred/Parish. Within the pieces are books. While one often writes the TNA designation as something like HO 107/456/15, the TNA writes them as something like HO 107/456 and the book is treated as a separate but necessary thing. I'm wondering if there was one or more book per parish; much like an ED.
Registration Districts did exist from 1837 for the purpose of BMD registrations, but that would be something quite different.
[I modified my post as I mistakenly said Sub-districts were mentioned by FMP.]
For the life of me, I don't know why both Ancestry and FMP mention them or where they got them.
It almost seems that the census was collected by Parish and TNA wanted a larger grouping for their filing, so they used hundreds.
Thank goodness for the std. simple TNA reference...
Here is what I decided to try for my filing of the 1841 census.
It tries to use the TNA 9UK) reference system with an explanation of what the piece means per the TNA.
All I can say from looking at the TNA (UK) is that there is no concept of registration districts mentioned for the 1841 census.
The TNA pieces seem to use the hierarchy of County/Hundred/Parish. Within the pieces are books. While one often writes the TNA designation as something like HO 107/456/15, the TNA writes them as something like HO 107/456 and the book is treated as a separate but necessary thing. I'm wondering if there was one or more book per parish; much like an ED.
Registration Districts did exist from 1837 for the purpose of BMD registrations, but that would be something quite different.
[I modified my post as I mistakenly said Sub-districts were mentioned by FMP.]
For the life of me, I don't know why both Ancestry and FMP mention them or where they got them.
It almost seems that the census was collected by Parish and TNA wanted a larger grouping for their filing, so they used hundreds.
Thank goodness for the std. simple TNA reference...
Here is what I decided to try for my filing of the 1841 census.
It tries to use the TNA 9UK) reference system with an explanation of what the piece means per the TNA.
Last edited by Gary_G on 24 Jul 2024 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
Hunting History in the Wild!
Re: England & Wales census records
In England, Hundreds were the administrative areas (for tax collection, courts etc. ) within the individual Shires (Counties) from Anglo-Saxon times until the mid-19th century when the more familiar 'local authority' areas were established. To add to the complexity, in Yorkshire, they were commonly referred to as 'Wapentakes'. For Census purposes, the Hundreds (or 'Wapentakes') were the defined 'local governance' areas responsible for gathering and compiling the information from the first modern 'census' in 1801 to 1841, but the survival of the original census data from 1801-1831 is very limited and, even where some data does survive, there is much less detail than was recorded from 1841 onwards, e.g. In Yorkshire, there are surviving records for the Ossett Census for 1821, held by the West Yorkshire Archive Service for the 1821 Census, which primarily contains the names of the Heads of the individual Households, plus the number of other household members by gender; and the age groups of children (in 5 year bands) plus some occupational data.
Mervyn
Mervyn
Re: England & Wales census records
Mervyn;
Thank you for the background info.
So it sounds like my guess was correct and Hundreds or 'Wapentakes' are a valid part of the hierarchy.
Still not sure why Registration Districts were even mentioned by FMP. It's confusing enough as it is.
I'm wondering if the books were a division below a parish. ie. a parish might have one or more books of census returns.
Thank you for the background info.
So it sounds like my guess was correct and Hundreds or 'Wapentakes' are a valid part of the hierarchy.
Still not sure why Registration Districts were even mentioned by FMP. It's confusing enough as it is.
I'm wondering if the books were a division below a parish. ie. a parish might have one or more books of census returns.
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
Hunting History in the Wild!
Re: England & Wales census records
Gary,
Registration Districts were established in time for the introduction of the registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages in 1837, so they were also active well before for the 1841 Census and the Superintendent Registrars were charged with the responsibility of counter-signing the compiled returns for their District.
Many Registration Districts might well have originally been co-terminus with the boundaries of 'old' Hundreds to enable the transition, but I've never attempted to check any of the mapping so that's only a guess.
Mervyn
Registration Districts were established in time for the introduction of the registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages in 1837, so they were also active well before for the 1841 Census and the Superintendent Registrars were charged with the responsibility of counter-signing the compiled returns for their District.
Many Registration Districts might well have originally been co-terminus with the boundaries of 'old' Hundreds to enable the transition, but I've never attempted to check any of the mapping so that's only a guess.
Mervyn
Re: England & Wales census records
Mervyn;
Yes; as noted, I was aware that the registration was mandated in 1837. I wondered if the boundaries of hundreds and Registration Districts might have aligned at that time. However; I'm just not sure why they are noted by FMP; as if it were somehow important in the context of understanding/locating a census record.
Yes; as noted, I was aware that the registration was mandated in 1837. I wondered if the boundaries of hundreds and Registration Districts might have aligned at that time. However; I'm just not sure why they are noted by FMP; as if it were somehow important in the context of understanding/locating a census record.
Gary Gauthier
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Re: England & Wales census records
Well done. I saw Reg Districts and just assumed ( ) that they had the same significance.Gary_G wrote: ↑24 Jul 2024 20:51 ... All I can say from looking at the TNA (UK) is that there is no concept of registration districts mentioned for the 1841 census.
The TNA pieces seem to use the hierarchy of County/Hundred/Parish. ... I'm wondering if there was one or more book per parish; much like an ED.
Registration Districts did exist from 1837 for the purpose of BMD registrations, but that would be something quite different.
[I modified my post as I mistakenly said Sub-districts were mentioned by FMP.]
For the life of me, I don't know why both Ancestry and FMP mention them or where they got them. ...
On digging a bit further, I have this note taken from FamilySearch
Note the last sentence of that quote!... The census office organized the censuses by civil Registration Districts, which were subdivided into Enumeration Districts. The only exception is the 1841 census which was arranged by hundreds (administrative subdivisions of land). ...
As for where Ancestry and FMP got the Reg Districts from - I suspect from the headers of the 1841. Here's a header from the 1841 for London: Yes, at the top it's County, then Hundred etc, then parish. In this instance, assuming this is the header of a book, then the parish in question appears to be spread across at least 2 books.
But further down the page it lists the Superintendent's Reg District, the Registrar's [Sub-]District (terminology is a bit variable at this point) and the Enumeration District. So organisation appears to be County, Hundred etc, parish. The Books then list the RD etc, applicable.
Adrian
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Re: England & Wales census records
So far as I could see from Cheshire - they didn't. Reg Districts were (initially) cloned from the Poor Law Unions created by the "New" Poor Law Act of 1834. This reference https://www.workhouses.org.uk/poorlaws/ ... ml#Act1834 mentions the definition of the PLUs - they appear to have been created from fresh and their definition was subject to pressure from "interested parties", so no automatic cloning from Hundreds or whatever.
Adrian
Re: England & Wales census records
Adrian;But further down the page it lists the Superintendent's Reg District, the Registrar's [Sub-]District (terminology is a bit variable at this point) and the Enumeration District. So organisation appears to be County, Hundred etc, parish. The Books then list the RD etc, applicable.
I wonder.... Listing the applicable RD etc. at the end wouldn't necessarily imply that the Registration District actually played a role in how the census was structured. The Registration District may only have been mentioned as the registrar for the noted district was responsible for assembling the returns (see Mervyn's post). I've noticed that FMP (and other sites) often allow you to search on just about anything in a record set; whether or not it reflects how the record collection was actually structured. So; allowing a search for the responsible registrar's RD might be a bit of a red herring.
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
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Re: England & Wales census records
Gary,
Adrian is, of course correct about the direct association of Registration Districts with the pre-existing Poor Law Unions (which can be linked broadly back to the 'old' Church of England Parish Boundaries as the 'Church' was previously the Parish Relief authority), but the Hundreds or their equivalents in some Counties would also have a close link with old Church Parish boundaries, or vice-versa. The Registration District/Poor Law Union association can be seen in some of the Registration District Names recorded in the GRO's 'relatively new' online Birth/Death Registration Indexes, e.g. pre-1852 the Dewsbury and Wakefield Districts are frequently recorded as 'The Dewsbury Union' and The Wakefield Union, but both Registration Districts/Unions and their respective historical Parish boundaries covered very wide geographical areas including multiple rapidly growing centres of population well beyond their 'Town' boundaries and many with their own 'more recent' parish churches/chapels.
An interesting 'side discussion' but all very complex now, though probably not at the time!
Superintendent Registrars.
From what I've gleaned over the years - my 'serious' research commenced in the early 1990s, when most rliable source detail was only generally available via direct visits to Reference Libraries and/or Regional Archives to wade through their seemingly endless ranks of often unindexed material on microfilm and, if lucky, the original records - the Superintendent Registrars responsibilities for the Census were primarily:
- Defining a local Enumeration District 'structure', based on how many properties an individual Enumerator could be expected to visit and collect returns from in one day (the date of the Census). The 'size' of each ED would obviously have depended on the density of the population and distances to be travelled between properties.
- Recruiting/Appointing the Enumerators - Mostly they would have been people with other 'responsible' positions in the community with a good local knowledge of their appointed area and its population, so there would only have been a limited sense of need for privacy for households, but more a method designed to be capable of producing the required level of statistical accuracy, even if a high level of illiteracy existed in many communities. (What we see of the early Census are the Enumerators Schedules not the individual Household Schedules, so we're already dealing with material copied by the Enumerator from the original household returns, which no longer exist, just as many Parish Registers entries would often have been compiled by a Parish Clerk from notes provided by the officiating ministers.
- Verifying to the 'central authority' that the returned Enumerators Schedules provided full coverage of their District.
Mervyn
How broadly successful they were in their delivering those responsibilities we can now perhaps glean from the surviving documentation.
Adrian is, of course correct about the direct association of Registration Districts with the pre-existing Poor Law Unions (which can be linked broadly back to the 'old' Church of England Parish Boundaries as the 'Church' was previously the Parish Relief authority), but the Hundreds or their equivalents in some Counties would also have a close link with old Church Parish boundaries, or vice-versa. The Registration District/Poor Law Union association can be seen in some of the Registration District Names recorded in the GRO's 'relatively new' online Birth/Death Registration Indexes, e.g. pre-1852 the Dewsbury and Wakefield Districts are frequently recorded as 'The Dewsbury Union' and The Wakefield Union, but both Registration Districts/Unions and their respective historical Parish boundaries covered very wide geographical areas including multiple rapidly growing centres of population well beyond their 'Town' boundaries and many with their own 'more recent' parish churches/chapels.
An interesting 'side discussion' but all very complex now, though probably not at the time!
Superintendent Registrars.
From what I've gleaned over the years - my 'serious' research commenced in the early 1990s, when most rliable source detail was only generally available via direct visits to Reference Libraries and/or Regional Archives to wade through their seemingly endless ranks of often unindexed material on microfilm and, if lucky, the original records - the Superintendent Registrars responsibilities for the Census were primarily:
- Defining a local Enumeration District 'structure', based on how many properties an individual Enumerator could be expected to visit and collect returns from in one day (the date of the Census). The 'size' of each ED would obviously have depended on the density of the population and distances to be travelled between properties.
- Recruiting/Appointing the Enumerators - Mostly they would have been people with other 'responsible' positions in the community with a good local knowledge of their appointed area and its population, so there would only have been a limited sense of need for privacy for households, but more a method designed to be capable of producing the required level of statistical accuracy, even if a high level of illiteracy existed in many communities. (What we see of the early Census are the Enumerators Schedules not the individual Household Schedules, so we're already dealing with material copied by the Enumerator from the original household returns, which no longer exist, just as many Parish Registers entries would often have been compiled by a Parish Clerk from notes provided by the officiating ministers.
- Verifying to the 'central authority' that the returned Enumerators Schedules provided full coverage of their District.
Mervyn
How broadly successful they were in their delivering those responsibilities we can now perhaps glean from the surviving documentation.
Re: England & Wales census records
Mervyn;
Thank you for the background.
It's always good to hear the "why" behind what we see.
Thank you for the background.
It's always good to hear the "why" behind what we see.
Gary Gauthier
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Re: England & Wales census records
I'd agree with that, Gary.Gary_G wrote: ↑24 Jul 2024 22:39 ... I wonder.... Listing the applicable RD etc. at the end wouldn't necessarily imply that the Registration District actually played a role in how the census was structured. The Registration District may only have been mentioned as the registrar for the noted district was responsible for assembling the returns (see Mervyn's post). ...
Adrian
Re: England & Wales census records
Adrian;
I'm just cleaning up my notes on the subject and wanted to pass the following table by you to see if I've missed something. I'm finding that we sometimes include far more than is required to relocate a record. That can mean a lot of unnecessary work in developing templates. I keep any additional info in my research notes for a record.
Minimum required reference info for census/register records on FindMyPast
I'm just cleaning up my notes on the subject and wanted to pass the following table by you to see if I've missed something. I'm finding that we sometimes include far more than is required to relocate a record. That can mean a lot of unnecessary work in developing templates. I keep any additional info in my research notes for a record.
Minimum required reference info for census/register records on FindMyPast
Gary Gauthier
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Re: England & Wales census records
I think that's OK - albeit I had to go back to check our previous thread on the topic of Item in the 1939!
Adrian
Re: England & Wales census records
Thanks, Adrian.
I appreciate you taking the time to review it and get back to me.
I appreciate you taking the time to review it and get back to me.
Gary Gauthier
Hunting History in the Wild!
Hunting History in the Wild!