* Installing FH under virtual machine on a Mac

[amk1609]

I have been running FH (still V6.2) under VirtualBox on my Macbook for several years without any real problems (many thanks to Mervyn Ashby for great advice). However my Mac (2017 model) is now in need of replacing, and looking at the latest 2023 model (M3 chip) I am getting the impression that VirtualBox is not the best option(may not even work?). So I am thinking about Parallels and would appreciate any advice from users who are running this configuration (Parallels/Mac/M3), what version of Windows (I am still using the old but very reliable Windows 7!), and any advice and/or issues they have. Many thanks in advance
PS I also rely heavily on my Microsoft Money 2005 with many years of accounts! I know it runs on Win10, I know it's not this forum but maybe others do the same?

[Tony Jones]

Not quite the same, but Parallels Intel Win 10. Parallels is a little pricey and a little quirky to set up to best effect, but seems rock solid.

[mjashby]

@amk1609

To continue running Family Historian in a Windows virtual machine on a 'M' series Silicon Mac there are now a few working options, but Oracle VirtualBox is not yet one of them. Oracle's developers appear to have started their development by first working on 'emulation' rather than virtualisation, so it's O.K if you want to run Windows XP but not much use for running anything that needs Windows 10/11 and it seems likely to take them some time to produce a real working solution. To be fair, they do describe their current beta application a Developer Preview with "moderate performance" and not yet fit for use in a production environment.

The real option is the virtualisation of "Windows 11 for ARM" and there are currently 3 main options for achieving that:

- Parallels - a relatively expensive option, especially with the need to regularly upgrade Parallels.

- VMWare Fusion - Equally expensive if you choose the commercial option, but they do offer a 'Freeware' option for personal use only, so well worth considering especially as, in addition to the official guides available, there is an Unofficial Companion Guide (warts and all) produced; and regularly updated, by one of the main contributors to their User Forum, which provides detailed information on virtual machine installation and work arounds for known problems and 'missing' features. Fusion Version 13.5 is compatible with macOS Ventura and Sonoma; and has also added some features missing from the initial 13.0 release.

Like Parallels the application will install on both Intel and 'M' Series Macs, but will only install/run ARM Virtual Machines (Windows and Linux only) on 'M' Series and x32-64 bit Operating Systems on Intel Macs.

Links:
https://customerconnect.vmware.com/eval ... r-personal
https://communities.vmware.com/t5/VMwar ... -p/2939907

- UTM An open source (free to use) donation supported project which also produces a 'universal app' which runs on both old and new Macs, but in addition to what Parallels and VMWare offer it can also:
a) use QEMU to emulate other CPUs on M Series Macs which allows older x32-64 bit Operating Systems to be installed; and
b) Uses the Apple Hypervisor to enable the virtualisation of recent macOS Operating Systems and new Beta versions.

Links:
https://mac.getutm.app
https://github.com/utmapp/UTM
- Also available on the macOS and iOS App Stores for a small cost, which goes to support continuing development.

Hope that helps.

Mervyn

[tatewise]

Does this new advice need to be captured in FHUG KB Running Family Historian on a Virtual Machine which despite its title only mentions Oracle VirtualBox and none of the options described here by Mervyn?
However, this is not my area of expertise.

[mjashby]

Mike (and any KB Editor interested),

I'm happy for the information provided to be added to the KB article in whatever format is considered suitable, but don't personally have editing rights.

I do intend fully testing the VMware (Free Personal Use License) and UTM Windows for ARM installation process, as soon as I get time and will provide further feedback if needed.

Mervyn

[tatewise]

You can request an editor's account - it is afHUG KB Contribute option https://www.fhug.org.uk/kb/request-an-editors-account/

[mjashby]

Mike,

I'll try to sort something out over in the coming week, but do want to test at least one of the main virtualisation options personally on a 'new' Silicon Mac.

Having used VirtualBox for over 10 years, and still having a useable 2019/20 Intel Mac, familiarisation with 'newer' Macs and other virtualisation options has been on the back-burner for some time, although I have been following developments and doing the necessary background research.

Mervyn

[amk1609]

Many thanks for the very detailed input from Mervyn. I have spent some time reading and researching - was perfectly happy with VirtualBox but now feel the whole area with the new M chip Macs a bit too much in its infancy so will upgrade my Mac and in the interim get a cheap refurbished Windows machine just for FH & Money !!
Easy way out but I just need something which works out of the box!
May revisit again when the technology is more developed.
Thanks again

[Gary_G]

I'm considering moving off Parallels due to the high cost of subscription renewal.
The current Knowledgebase article helps a bit, but I'd like to hear from someone who has tried other alternate virtual machines.

Can someone tell me;

• Is VirtualBox a product one needs to purchase?

• Are there any notable limitations while running FH7 and A.S. under VirtualBox on Mac O/S Sonoma?

• Do FH7 and A.S. work on Windows 8 Pro, as I only have a license and disk for that version.

If there are other virtualization options that may work on Mac Sonoma and later, I'd like to hear about them and any "quirks", please.

[Valkrider]

I have gone over to UTM as I now have an M3 iMac. I am running a free version of Win11 for ARM from M$.

[tatewise]

From the https://www.family-historian.co.uk/install7 download page:
"Family Historian runs on the following operating systems only: Windows 11, 10 and 8"

[Gary_G]

Thanks, Mike.

[mjashby]

Gary,

Are you using an Intel Mac or a Silicon (ARM64) Mac? The currently available 'Free to Use' alternatives to Parallels for Installing Windows 11 differ according to which platform you use.

Broadly they are:

- VMware Fusion (Pro version is now 'Free for Personal Use') - Same application download installs and adapts to the platform it installs on. An 'unofficial' Guide is available on the User Forum which fully describes the limitations and work arounds available (see Link below). Development seems to have slowed somewhat since the company was taken over by Broadcom, although the 'Free for Personal Use' option for the Pro Version was introduced by Broadcom after the takeover.
- UTM - Same application download installs and adapts to the platform it is installed on. Has similar limitations to VMware Fusion and the odd advantage, but is less polished (in my opinion). To me it seems 'slow' when running x64 Operating Systems on an Intel Mac, but it does seem better with ARM64 VMs on a Silicon Mac. There is really only one main developer, so progress in delivering 'new' features and extending capability can be slow.
- VirtualBox - The version available for macOS (Intel) works for installing Windows 11 (x64). However, the version currently (newly) released for macOS/ARM64 will only install/run a limited range of Linux/BSD ARM64 Operating Systems, NOT Windows for ARM yet (and they don't speculate on future plans/availability).

Edit: VMware Fusion: The Unofficial Fusion for Apple Silicon Companion Guide, Version 28: https://community.broadcom.com/vmware-c ... ydocuments

Mervyn

[Gary_G]

Well...

I've just finished installing FH7 and A.S. on the free VMware Fusion Pro 13 virtual machine running on Windows 11 and it works perfectly well.

The following summarizes my findings to date, which I hope will help others.

Setting up VMware Fusion Pro 13 was dead easy. I even managed to use a Windows key from an old Windows disk I had lying around to activate the new Windows 11, which is automatically installed. It didn't seem to care about the disk being from something as old as Windows 8.

Setting up shared drives is currently a bit tricky due to the virtual machine not yet automatically allowing access to Mac folders. That was overcome with relatively little effort. I should note that drag-n-drop works between the shared folder on the Mac side and apps on the Windows side. The only oddity is that dragging from a shared Mac directory into Fh7 yields a working-but-confusing path to the image, due to how the folder is currently mapped. Dragging and dropping from the shared folder totally within the Windows environment yields a path that is easier to comprehend. In short; it may be best to think about working totally within the Windows virtual machine when using FH7.

Getting printers to work took a bit of tinkering, because I have a network printer connected to my wireless router. That meant I had to add the Bonjour for Windows 11 to my configuration. Then it worked flawlessly.

One will find running programs using the VMware option to be just a little slower than Parallels, but not enough so as to be a real issue. Parallels Pro is set up to utilize more of the Mac M-series processor cores, so it runs faster.

The lack of "coherence" mode in VMware means that the Windows programs are confined to a separate window on one's monitor, so having two monitors is a real plus. That said; I've found that I can cut and paste from Mac Applications to Windows applications and the shared folder allows file transfers between systems.

I must admit that moving the configuration data/files for FH7 and A.S. was a little bit of an issue, but I soon got that resolved. Making backups is absolutely recommended, as you'll likely have to try a few times to get everything working in concert. The Virtual Machine option is nice, because the FH7 plugins all seem to work well and help to speed the transfer and verification process.

[mjashby]

Gary,

Glad the Broadcom/VMware option is working for you. I presume you've had some previous experience with VMware. I must admit to struggling with the network setup part of the installation, as my long-term experience is with the VirtualBox implementation, which I've used for more than 12 years, having given up on Parallels move towards an annual licensing model.

'Shared Folders' is currently one key advantage of UTM, which does support that feature, although it is limited by only being able to share one 'hot swappable' share, but that can be set at the user's 'Documents' level, so direct use of all files saved in the Mac's Documents folder and its sub folders is possible without having to 'fiddle' with network settings. Hopefully, VMware will deliver that missing feature in the not two distant future; and VirtualBox will also catch up on it's 'late start', having previously focussed a lot of seemingly wasted effort on x32_64 emulation.

Mervyn

[Gary_G]

Mervyn;

Yes; I've had a pretty extensive exposure to software/hardware engineering on many hardware platforms, so figuring things out was a bit easier for me than it might be for others.

I've had enough experience with virtual machines that I've always tended to keep all my data and configuration files in a single shared directory off the root of the drive. That kept elaborated pathnames to a minimum length, made sharing simple to set up and allowed Mac Time-Machine to back them up outside of and separate from the VM environment. The latter point is critical, if one ever needs to transfer to another hardware platform. It also made them available to non-FH programs that run natively on the Mac.

[Gary_G]

***CAUTION - be careful about upgrading your Windows installations***

I just had a VERY long and unhelpful discussion with Microsoft Tech Support with regard to how to deactivate my authenticated and activated Windows 11 license on Parallels and activate it on VMware. That is how the license activation is theoretically SUPPOSED to work.

However; they say it can't be done and I need to buy ANOTHER license. [As if I'm made of money]. And... it has nothing to do with it being on a virtual machine.

Apparently this situation has happened because the original activation of Windows 11 was done via a free upgrade from Windows 8. [I don't believe that FH7 will run on Windows 8]. Now I can't transfer from one machine to another, because the ability to upgrade from Windows 8 has been discontinued by Microsoft. I'm sure this will happen with Windows 10, as well, in the very near future. So; any unwary upgraders had best be prepared to purchase another Microsoft license.

My existing Parallels-based and licensed Windows installation works, it just can't be transferred to ANY other platform and Parallels costs about $150 CDN per year. That's a bit expensive to run a just FH7 and A.S. and I've found the fidelity of Windows emulators is just not there yet.

I sure hope that CP takes another hard look at the wishlist item requesting a Mac version of FH7, because I'd rather pay for a new version of FH7 than to end up paying for both Parallels and Windows as well.

[tatewise]

As I said earlier from the https://www.family-historian.co.uk/install7 FH V7 download page:
"Family Historian runs on the following operating systems only: Windows 11, 10 and 8"
So FH V7 should run on Windows 8.

I suspect the Windows licencing problem is associated with it being an OEM licence and not a Retail licence.
The same problem applies to a real PC with a Windows 8 OEM licence that upgrades for free to Windows 10 & 11.
If that old PC is discarded and a new PC purchased the Windows OEM licence cannot be transferred because it is governed by the Original Equipment Manufacture (OEM) licence terms that lock it to the original PC hardware.
PC manufacturers sell Windows OEM at a discount to buyers.
If you want freedom to install Windows on any device you need a more expensive Retail licence.

[Mark1834]

That's correct. The OEM licence is tied to the motherboard. The more expensive retail licence does not have that restriction.

[Gary_G]

Mike and Mark;
The license was definitely a retail one, not an OEM.
I both have the receipt from when I bought it and have checked using the slmgr tool on Windows.
My problem is far more complex and Mac users really need to be aware of the issues.

1) Per MS "Tech" Support...
The original license was for Windows 8, which was upgraded a while ago to a Windows 11 license via an MS free upgrade offer.
The problem is that MS views switching virtual machines as being the same as switching motherboards.
When one switches motherboards one must use the old retail-version product code to re-install Windows.
As my original license was for Windows 8, I'd normally have to re-install Windows 8 and then upgrade it to Windows 11.
Unfortunately; the upgrade offer has expired and one can no longer upgrade the original licence.
What this means is that I can't move my licensed Windows 11 Pro off the Parallels platform that costs about $100 CDN/year.

2) Nobody at MS will tell you this, but MS does not even make the cheaper Windows 11 Home distribution for the ARM processor. They only make a Windows 11 Pro distribution ... and... the Pro version is only officially available as a download via one's virtual machine. I learned this in a chat with tech support at Parallels. There are some "sneaky" ways to get a copy of Windows 11 Home running in the virtual machine, but it would not be supported by MS.

3) Also; if one has an M-series (Apple-Silicon) Mac, then one cannot run any O/S that was made to run on an Intel chip on a virtual machine. None of the available virtual machines do the necessary ARM to INTEL conversion. That means that all Windows versions prior to Windows 11 are not available to Mac users... except by using an emulator.

Note that point 3 would preclude my using my Windows 8 license to run Windows 8 or to upgrade (if it were still offered) to Windows 11.
Also note that to run a licensed copy of Windows, Mac users would have to buy a Windows 11 Pro license at nearly $300 CDN.
Now; I realize that one could run Windows Pro without activation, and some do, but some might struggle with the legality of doing so.
That leaves only one pragmatic and strictly legal solution; run FH7 using an emulator that mimics an FH7 compatible Windows release.
Unfortunately; while emulators do run FH7 to a great extent, there are some annoying issues with doing so.

All-in-all; I've had a very mentally exhausting day, but now have a very good idea of the issues and potential solutions. I'm also quite sure that I'll never buy a machine that natively runs MS Windows. Their tech support is abysmal.

[mjashby]

Gary,

I'm not surprised that your "research" has been an exhausting experience but it looks very thorough.

Over the last few months Microsoft has definitely tightened up on the formerly rather loose application of it's own stated policy on 'free' Windows 10/11 upgrades, i.e. within the last few months the 'free' upgrade routes from Windows 7/8/8.1 have now been 'closed down'; and the transfer of Licenses identified as 'OEM', which were getting past the Activation Server checks are also now being blocked. I don't believe they have changed any of the original free upgrade offerings, it's just that they have been closing some 'open doors' that the Activation Servers weren't previously recognising.

The last time I needed to transfer a Microsoft Account registered Windows 11 Licence from an x64 VirtualBox Virtual Machine to a newly installed VMware ARM 64 Virtual Machine, the transfer was accepted when using the "Change of Hardware" Activation option.

Given RootsMagic Inc.'s years of trials and tribulations in implementing a cross-platform (Windows and Mac) version, which is still an incomplete exercise, I wouldn't expect that Calico Pie will rush to take the risk of investing in a native Mac version of Family Historian, but we could perhaps hope that they may work with the likes of Codeweavers (CrossOver) to deliver the best 'emulation' experience possible, which could further open up their market to macOS and Linux users.

Mervyn

[Gary_G]

Mervyn;

I would second the suggestion that CP look at an informal association with Codewavers to help Family Historian work more seamlessly on Crossover.
The current $74 USD price for Crossover would be a relatively low-cost solution to getting FH7 to run correctly on a Mac and a low-risk avenue to CP attracting more Mac users.

Personally; I haven't tried Crossover in a year or so. Have you given it a go and found it to be better than some of the basic emulators?

[Gary_G]

Mervyn;

I tried Crossover and it seems to work to some extent.
The site notes that there are imitations to the functionality, but doesn't identify them.
Do you happen to know what the limitations are?
I am seeing an issue with using the internal web-browser and printing to my printer.

[tatewise]

See FHUG KB Running Family Historian on Crossover
That explains the printing problem and the workaround in Printing and PDF.
Also that the internal web-browser does not work but using the external browser option works fine as explained under Reported Problems along with some other issues.

[Gary_G]

Thanks, Mike.
I looked at that article and other posts and found that much of the info was a bit dated. I thought I'd ask, because the solution when using the newest Crossover release might have changed the issues one might encounter and the suggested workarounds. My preliminary investigations show that some of the issues other than printing and the web browser seem to have been fixed. As Mervyn is shown on the Crossover beta tester list, asking him about the current status seemed the correct path forward.