* Citing English Churches

[ColeValleyGirl]

In England and Wales it's the case that paishes and parish churches preceded the registers.

The point i was trying to make is that a parish register only identifies the Parish not the church. For the purpose of citing it I take Adrian's approach, e.g. : The Xxx Register of the Parish Church of the Parish of Yyy in the County of Zzz (suitably shortened for brevitys sake unless I've seen that the document is more specicic and includes the dedication.

But when recording the relevant fact I try to track down the correct building and include the dedication and address for disambiguation within a parish. Of course you cant always be sure but if a couple lived one street over from a chapel if ease most likely that was where they were aotising the kids, not traipsing on foot the the parish chuch.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Te attribution it's imprtant to remember that they're PARISH registers not CHURCH registers.

[Gary_G]

In England and Wales it's the case that paishes and parish churches preceded the registers.

The point i was trying to make is that a parish register only identifies the Parish not the church. For the purpose of citing it I take Adrian's approach, e.g. : The Xxx Register of the Parish Church of the Parish of Yyy in the County of Zzz (suitably shortened for brevitys sake unless I've seen that the document is more specicic and includes the dedication.

But when recording the relevant fact I try to track down the correct building and include the dedication and address for disambiguation within a parish. Of course you cant always be sure but if a couple lived one street over from a chapel if ease most likely that was where they were aotising the kids, not traipsing on foot the the parish chuch.

Helen;
So that I can understand your example, what is the "Xxx" in your above quote?
Is it the archival reference number or the date of the register?

[Gary_G]

Te attribution it's imprtant to remember that they're PARISH registers not CHURCH registers.

Yes; that was implicit in my prior comments, unless the register explicitly states the church to which it pertains.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Xxx is the type of register if stated. (Baptism, Marriage, Burial, or some combination.)

So shortened as mentioned,

Parish of Clifton St Mary, Nottinghamshire, "Register of Marriages 1819-1828", John Brooks and Mary Fletcher, 13 September 1828; citing Nottinghamshire Archives PR 3654

Edited to add: Clifton St Mary to disambiguate it from the large parish in Nottinghshire called Clifton. It's also referred to as Clifton-cum-Glapton and Clifton (with Glapton).

[arthurk]

Others have commented on the age of the church in Weston, Bath, and I agree with them about its antiquity. I therefore cannot leave this unchallenged:

However...
In 1885 two ladies started holding services in Weston Green, Somerset. The cornerstone of All Saints Mission Church, Weston Park, was laid on 1 Dec 1900 and dedicated on 16 May 1901. However; the All Saints Weston we know today had the cornerstone laid on 9 October 1938 and was consecrated on 24 Jun 1939. It is in Weston, but not on the same site as the mission church. [Taken from the church history of All Saints Weston on it's website].

The text you have quoted/paraphrased relates to All Saints Weston Green, which is in or near Esher, Surrey. "Somerset" does not appear in the item you refer to, and you presumably inserted it yourself. The history of this church can be found at https://allsaintsweston.com/our-history/

All Saints Weston (Bath, Somerset) is a completely separate entity, dating back at least 800 years, and 100 miles or more from Esher. Its history can be found at https://www.allsaintsweston.org.uk/Grou ... story.aspx

So; if All Saints in the Parish of Weston was not even in existence at the time, Ancestry is incorrect in its attribution. It raises the question as to which parish church the image refers, as it certainly wasn't All Saints, and Philmore's doesn't identify any church in the Parish of Weston, Somerset.

I haven't checked, but I have no reason to suppose that Ancestry has made a mistake with the registers for Weston. Phillimore's Atlas (my 1995 edition) clearly shows Weston both on the map and in the list of parishes at the end, with a start date for the registers of 1538. It doesn't give the church's dedication because as with all places where there was only one ancient parish it doesn't need to be differentiated from any other parish.

Issues like this can be a bit confusing, but they can usually be resolved with the help of a map, the information at Genuki, and the churches' own websites. Phillimore's Atlas can also help, and if you still haven't found a dedication which you think you need, try the listing of parishes in Crockford's Clerical Directory: old copies can be found at Ancestry and The Genealogist, and probably also the Internet Archive.

[Gary_G]

Helen;

Ok. Thank you. As you likely know, I tend to do splitting, use templates and a longer citation, but keep my source titles very short. I just wanted to make sure I had everything that was necessary.

Just as a totally separate example to illustrate how I try to address what you also seem to do [and to avoid the thread wandering into discussing the specifics previous example]...

Source Title
Baptism, Parish of Brenchley (Kent, England), 1849-12-30, Elizabeth Wells

Source List Entry
"Kent Baptisms". Database with images. FindMyPast. https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search- ... t-baptisms : 2019.

First Reference Note
Parish of Brenchley (Kent, England), Register of Baptisms, 2 Jul 1848 - 28 Mar 1858, p. 20, no. 160, Elizabeth Wells baptism, 30 Dec 1849; imaged in "Kent Baptisms", FindMyPast (https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search- ... t-baptisms : accessed 15 Dec 2019); citing Kent History & Library Centre, reference vol. P45/1/B/2 [formerly P45/1/6].

Subsequent Note
Parish of Brenchley (Kent, England), Register of Baptisms, 2 Jul 1848 - 28 Mar 1858, p. 20, no. 160, Elizabeth Wells baptism, 30 Dec 1849.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Helen;

Ok. Thank you. As you likely know, I tend to do splitting, use templates and a longer citation, but keep my source titles very short. I just wanted to make sure I had everything that was necessary.

Just as a totally separate example to illustrate how I try to address what you also seem to do [and to avoid the thread wandering into discussing the specifics previous example]...

My current equivalents would be:

Short Title
Marriage 1828 England Nottingham Clifton St Mary, John Brooks and Mary Fletcher
[A finding aid for my use within FH only-- What When Where, Who]

Title/Source List Entry
Parish of Clifton St Mary, Nottinghamshire, "Register of Marriages 1819-1828"
[Author, Title]

First Reference Note
Parish of Clifton St Mary, Nottinghamshire, "Register of Marriages 1819-1828", John Brooks and Mary Fletcher, 13 September 1828; citing Nottinghamshire Archives PR 3654
[Author, Document, Persons of Interest, Date; document location/reference details -- I viewed the original myself]

Subsequent Note
Parish of Clifton St Mary, Nottinghamshire, "Register of Marriages 1819-1828", John Brooks and Mary Fletcher, 13 September 1828
[Author, Document, Persons of Interest, Date]

Bear in mind I haven't yet done any work to update my citations from FH6 (whichever standard I adopt). In FH6 I recorded the first reference note in the Title, and used the Short Title as the finding aid. I don't and probably' won't use Subsequent Notes or Source Lists, although never say never.

[Gary_G]

Thanks for showing what you use.
My style is a bit of a hold-over from my days of diligently trying to follow the EE style.
I've taken some liberties with it to accommodate my experiences and FH7.

[Gary_G]

Just a note to show a useful finding aid for the location of historic CofE Churches.
It may help someone figure out how to cite and locate them.
https://facultyonline.churchofengland.org/churches

[fhtess65]

Interesting site - still a work in progress, but definitely worth bookmarking.

Thanks for posting the link

Just a note to show a useful finding aid for the location of historic CofE Churches.
It may help someone figure out how to cite and locate them.
https://facultyonline.churchofengland.org/churches

[Gary_G]

Teresa;

It helped me figure out the "official" name and parish etc. for various church buildings, since the names seem to differ somewhat between genealogy sites. As many English churches are formally listed historic buildings, this particular site is a good "standard" for their name and precise location. It is also possible to easily see what other churches are in the vicinity.

[fhtess65]

Yes - I liked the link to English Heritage and the map pinpointing its location.

Teresa;

It helped me figure out the "official" name and parish etc. for various church buildings, since the names seem to differ somewhat between genealogy sites. As many English churches are formally listed historic buildings, this particular site is a good "standard" for their name and precise location. It is also possible to easily see what other churches are in the vicinity.

[trevorrix]

These are the two best resources for identifying parishes/churches.

The Phillimore Atlas and Index of Parish Registers
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8830

FamilySearch Historical Map
https://www.familysearch.org/mapp

[Bobh1]

Thanks, Jean. I do know of AbeBooks, but as they're owned by Amazon, I boycott them.

Alibris is my used books site of choice and I do keep an eye out there

I found my copy in my local Charity Shop, it was only a couple of pounds

[fhtess65]

Hoping to be in England next year, so will definitely be browsing charity and second-hand bookshops for genealogical treasures!

I found my copy in my local Charity Shop, it was only a couple of pounds

[Katler]

These are the two best resources for identifying parishes/churches.

Thank you, interesting for my own research.

[Gary_G]

These are the two best resources for identifying parishes/churches.

The Phillimore Atlas and Index of Parish Registers
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8830

FamilySearch Historical Map
https://www.familysearch.org/mapp

Thanks for the references, Trevor.
Teressa and I live in Canada.
It's really difficult to purchase genealogical publications here and usually terribly expensive when one does.
That said; I'll keep my eyes open for the Phillimore Atlas and Index of Parish Registers.

[Gowermick]

There seem to be plenty of phillimore atlas’ for sale on Ebay, ranging from £5 upwards.
The cheaper ones were published in 1984 with the more expensive published in 2002. If money is an issue, I would think the 1984 copy would suit most people, especially as generally, most research is pre-1900, so 1984 edition would be fine.

Another useful book to keep an eye out for, (which I picked up recently in a charity shop for under £3.00) is ‘A Parish Finder For England’ 2nd edition, compiled by Graham January (2000). ISBN 0 9586481 7 4

It’s aim is to identify which pre1974 county a parish was located in, which may help indicate which county archive to use to further ones research or which county to reference in the Phillimore Atlas (authors note)

It contains over 22,000 entries. It also shows the ordinance survey (OS) reference for each church to identify its exact location (this may be less useful for our US friends, unless they are familiar with GB OS map references).

There is also a brief 2 or 3 line description detailing Parish Name, establishment date; Diocese, County Code and OS reference and Notes

Not too bad for £3.00