* Unable to re-order facts

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Gowermick
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Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

I have a census fact, and an occupation fact with the same date (i.e. Census Date)

I like to have Census before Occupation, and where they are not, I generally tidy up using the up/down arrows.

There are occasions however, despite fact dates being exctly the same, the up/down arrows are greyed out.
(Workround is to amend occupation fact by a day so it is displayed after Census,, then immediately correct it)

Anyone else experiencing this problem, and/or has it already been raised with CP?
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by jbtapscott »

Can't say I've noticed that problem but I tend to use the Sort Date on one or more Facts where the Fact Dates are the same and I want them in a specific order.
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by tatewise »

Mike, specifically what facts exhibit that issue?

Two facts can have the same Date but a different Normal Time Frame as specified in the Fact Types definition.
If moving the facts would violate the Normal Time Frame rules then the up/down arrows will be greyed out.
You will however be able to move them using the up/down arrows on the All tab.

If the issue affects some of your custom facts then check their Normal Time Frame definition.

[ EDIT: It is also possible that the facts have no Fact Type definition at all. ]
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Gowermick
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

Miketate,
You didn’t read the post properly. :D They are census and occupation facts.
Sometimes I am able to swap them around using the arrows, other times the arrows are greyed out!

Jbtapscot,
If they all have same date, how does sorting by date work? :D
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by tatewise »

Sorry, I was not sure whether Census and Occupation were just examples where up/down does work and it was others that failed.
Have the Census and Occupation facts just been edited in some way?
If so then closing and opening the Property Box may resolve the temporary problem.

As I said, you can always move them in the All tab.

Set the Sort Date to be two different Dates adjacent to the fact Date values, then they will determine the sort order. i.e. Open the Date Entry Assistant dialogue and set a Separate Sort Date at the bottom.
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by jbtapscott »

Jbtapscot,
If they all have same date, how does sorting by date work?
Because FH uses the Sort Date firstly and if there is no Sort Date on a Fact then it uses the Date on the Fact - by default the two have the same value unless you specifically input a Sort Date! (I'm sure coding-wise it doesn't work exactly like that but that's the end result!)
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Gowermick
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

Brent & MikeTate

I do not use a sort date, so sorting won't help.

The facts that fail to move are no diferent to the facts that do move, all entered in exactly the same way.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't
In the snapshot below, the 1861 entries are wrong way round, but the arrows are greyed out, and I can't move them

In the 1871 entries, they are correct way round, but the arrows are active and work!!

Shutting and re-opening the property box had no affect!
sort.jpg
sort.jpg (199.97 KiB) Viewed 385 times
Out of interest, I had a look at the All tab, and there seems no logic in the order of facts, especially as I always enter Census and Ocuupation facts together, so it can not be listed in the order I entered them, and I never amend the order via the All Tab - very strange

see snapshot below
all tab.jpg
all tab.jpg (277.33 KiB) Viewed 385 times
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tatewise
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by tatewise »

But if you did use a Sort Date then it would resolve the problem. That is what we are both saying.

However, the All tab explains the issue, which shows the facts as recorded in the underlying GEDCOM/database.
They are in a random order. The two facts dated 7 Apr 1861 are separated by a Death event which is in a different Normal Time Frame and prevents them being moved across the Death event.

The Facts tab, as I've explained many times before, gives an illusion of sorted facts.

You need to sort the underlying database into date order by using any of the sorting options.
See FHUG KB Sorting Children, Spouses & Facts into Date Order.
You will need to sort the database again every time you make significant changes.

Once the Facts are in Date order in the database then Facts with the same Date will be adjacent and the Facts tab up/down arrows will work.

There is Tools > Preferences > General tab Advanced... > Enable Automatic Ordering of Events/Attributes by Date option that is usually ticked but as its Help says with some forms of editing the events and attributes will not automatically be kept in chronological order. I suspect AS performs that form of editing and leaves facts not in date order.
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Gowermick
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

tatewise wrote: 11 Jul 2024 15:44 But if you did use a Sort Date then it would resolve the problem. That is what we are both saying.

However, the All tab explains the issue, which shows the facts as recorded in the underlying GEDCOM/database.
They are in a random order. The two facts dated 7 Apr 1861 are separated by a Death event which is in a different Normal Time Frame and prevents them being moved across the Death event.
It begs the question how did the death event come between the two facts, which were entered at same time? It seems to me there must be a bug in the system to insert a death fact in such a random place, and furthermore how did the other census ‘pairs’ get separted so wildly, when they are always entered together?

I am not convinced that everything is working as it should, and using a sort date, just to keep FH happy is a workaround, shouldn’t be necessary and doesn’t address the underlying problem.

To my mind, how things appear in the All tab, should have no bearing on the actions of the fact tab up/down arrows, especially if events like a death event are added randomly i.e the up/down arrows should always work as expected.

NB I have never used AS, so that can’t be the cause :D
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by tatewise »

Obviously, I cannot explain how the two events became separated by the Death event.
I suspect it may be caused by the way AS edits the GEDCOM file when adding facts.
However, the random database order of the facts confuses FH when trying to move facts up/down in the Facts tab because it is actually trying to move them in the underlying database.

The solution is in your own hands. Sort the underlying database and all moves will work as expected.
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by jbtapscott »

I am not convinced that everything is working as it should, and using a sort date, just to keep FH happy is a workaround, shouldn’t be necessary and doesn’t address the underlying problem.
.
With respect, using the Sort Date is not something to keep FH happy - it meets a basic requirement of being able to ensure that a group of Facts with the same date on them are reported in a standard way - eg. for a Marriage event, I want the Occupation and Residence Facts to be sorted before the Marriage Fact (others may well want it differently, so a Sort Date is required)
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by LornaCraig »

tatewise wrote: 11 Jul 2024 16:29 I suspect it may be caused by the way AS edits the GEDCOM file when adding facts.
Mike, Gowermick said "NB I have never used AS, so that can’t be the cause".

Gowermick: just use Tools > Re-order Out-of-Sequence-Data. Problem fixed.
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

LornaCraig wrote: 11 Jul 2024 16:41
tatewise wrote: 11 Jul 2024 16:29 I suspect it may be caused by the way AS edits the GEDCOM file when adding facts.
Mike, Gowermick said "NB I have never used AS, so that can’t be the cause".

Gowermick: just use Tools > Re-order Out-of-Sequence-Data. Problem fixed.
Lorna,
I’m not on my PC so haven’t tried it.
But may I say that the items are not out of sequence datewise, just not in the order I want , which is why I use Up/Down arrows.
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by tatewise »

The items are out of order datewise as shown on the All tab which is what matters.

The Facts tab is just a sorted display, not the actual data order.
When you use its up/down arrows it is the All tab data that is being moved.
The facts displayed come from many different records: Spouse Family, Parents, Spouse, Children, Principals, etc.
So its sorted order cannot be maintained in the Facts tab, but is always derived from those other records.

c.f. The Records Window tabs, which can sort data in many orders depending on which column is selected.
Similarly, the Facts tab can display facts in different orders depending on which column heading is selected.
The All tab can only be displayed in the order of the underlying database.

( Sorry, I overlooked that you never used AS. )
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Gowermick
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

Mike,
I am loathe to try it, as although it may solve the greyed out arrows problem, what guarantee is there that it will not re-arrange the Census and Occupations that are currently in the order I want.

For example, clicking on the facts field on the facts tab, will sort the facts into an alphabetical order. Click it again and it will sort into a slightly different alphabetical order!
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Jean001
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Jean001 »

Try Facts Tab, Cog Symbol (above the tabs), Sort Family & Events in Date Order. (Works on the current Fact Tab, not a global change.)

I've had to do this on occasion when I've had the 'greyed out arrows problem'.
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by LornaCraig »

Gowermick wrote: 11 Jul 2024 17:49 what guarantee is there that it will not re-arrange the Census and Occupations that are currently in the order I want.
It won't. If two facts have exactly the same date they will be kept in their current order, relative to each other. The only exception is when the Normal Time Frames are not compatible with the current order. So any which you have already managed to arrange in your required order will stay in that order.

Anyway, if you are really concerned you can tick 'Prompt For Confirmation Before Each Update'.

Honestly, just try it and see.
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Gowermick
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

Thanks everyone for your patience, I do take some convincing sometimes :lol:

I took the plunge and sorted as suggested, and fingers crossed it seemed to work.
I checked the individual in above example from screenshot and up/down arrows now work.


I will report it to CP tomorrow, as I'm sure it is not supposed to do what it does.
I'll report back what they say.
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by tatewise »

FYI: These kinds of experiments are no risk at all. No need to cross your fingers.
If the results are unsatisfactory then just use the File > Backup/Restore > Revert to Snapshot... options to return to this morning's state back where you started.
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Gowermick
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Re: Unable to re-order facts

Post by Gowermick »

Well, CP responded.

Martin reported back, and (not verbatim) says that as the facts come from different records, they can’t guarantee the arrows will always work. Try re-arranging items on all tab, or use a sort date!

Miketate, sound familiar? :lol:
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