* For citation nerds

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Gary_G
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Helen;

The GEDCOM version currently used by FH7 doesn't really address web-sources without a lot of "hand-waving".
I wonder what will happen to Generic Sources, when FH supports GEDCOM7?
Perhaps the Generic Sources will then be a viable option for more people.
Gary Gauthier
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KFN
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by KFN »

Gary_G wrote: 22 May 2024 19:17 Helen;

The GEDCOM version currently used by FH7 doesn't really address web-sources without a lot of "hand-waving".
I wonder what will happen to Generic Sources, when FH supports GEDCOM7?
Perhaps the Generic Sources will then be a viable option for more people.
Gary, I’m not sure at all what you mean by this.

I use GEDCOM based (generic sources ?) exclusively, no FH7 extension! I have a lot of web based sources, so I’m not sure what a “hand wave” refers to!
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Gary_G
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

"KFN"

The newer v7 standard specifically accommodates web-related info eg. the WWW tag. The current one used by FH7 does not.
Just because one can type a web-address into a Generic Source field does not mean that will be correctly represented in the resulting GEDCOM.
Consequently; it will likely not import elsewhere and correctly represent the entered data.

Trying to argue that if one can make the data fit in the field, then the solution is correct, is the "handwaving" to which I was referring. A better solution would be to lobby for CP to implement the v7 standard as some other programs have already done, then change the Generic Sources to utilize it.
Gary Gauthier
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KFN
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by KFN »

The newer v7 standard specifically accommodates web-related info eg. the WWW tag.
Where in the GEDCOM V7 specification is the WWW tag different than in the v5.5.1 version of GEDCOM?

In the discussions we have had on GEDCOM v7 it has been generally acknowledge that it is ok to put links to webpage in for example the <fact>.SOUR.PAGE tag as well as the Source_Record.REPO.CALN tag.

Most likely in early releases of v7 GEDCOM this will be the answer unless we can come to a consensus about how to adopt a new citation model.

The current citation model in v7 is not very different than the v5.5.1 model.
Last edited by KFN on 22 May 2024 23:57, edited 2 times in total.
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Gary_G
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

"KFN"

I'm not sure what "we" you are referring to in your post, nor who "generally acknowledged" your proposed solution.

Something is either per a standard or it is not. It sounds like you are basing "correctness" on an expressed opinion relating to the suitability of a proposed workaround, because the existing standard did not meet current needs. That should not be interpreted as a practice being compliant to the standard. Workarounds are nice, but don't expect other systems to correctly interpret a GEDCOM that implements a workaround.

That said; this thread is really not the place to digress into talking about things on which we will obviously never agree.
I suggest that the actual developers of the GEDCOM standard are the only ones permitted to give a final answer.
Gary Gauthier
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KFN
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by KFN »

I'm not sure what "we" you are referring to in your post, nor who "generally acknowledged" your proposed solution.
GEDCOM v7 Design Hub!
The newer v7 standard specifically accommodates web-related info eg. the WWW tag.
But you still have not indicated were in the v7 GEDCOM that the use of web addresses for citations is better handled than in v5.5.1!
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Gary_G
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

"KFN";

Thanks for clarifying that the GEDCOM v7 Design Hub blessed your proposed workaround, but it is still a workaround, NOT a documented part of the standard. That means that it is quite unlikely that it will be handled reliably by any other program. If you're OK with using it, then do so. However; I would still like to see an issue fixed rather than patched to make the problem "go away".

Wrt.:
But you still have not indicated were in the v7 GEDCOM that the use of web addresses for citations is better handled than in v5.5.1!
Please note that the minute you said "better" handled", you ensured that any discussion would only be an expressed opinion. Again; this is not really the place to beat such issues to death. I still feel that using a workaround to fix issues with an older standard is not the way to improve the way web-related info is handled. If you really feel that GEDCOM 7 is still no better than GEDCOM 5, I trust you'll keep pushing to make it better.

'Nuff said...
Gary Gauthier
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KFN
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by KFN »

I still feel that using a workaround to fix issues with an older standard is not the way to improve the way web-related info is handled. If you really feel that GEDCOM 7 is still no better than GEDCOM 5, I trust you'll keep pushing to make it better.
Yes "workarounds" are not good design solutions for an interface, however I've seen multiple software programs that don't even follow the v5.5.1 GEDCOM Standard in their exports for fields/tags that are currently found in The Standard. So expecting to interface between applications using GEDCOM has been a crapshoot for eternity, "we" know this and are trying to make it better!

It has been a long time since I've used or reviewed GEDCOM v5, I'm more in tuned to v5.5 and v5.5.1 of GEDCOM. I discuss regularly with individuals on the GEDCOM v7 design team including the Citation subgroup.
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