* For citation nerds

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ColeValleyGirl
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For citation nerds

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Evidence Explained: Third Edition vs. Fourth Edition.

I don't have a copy of the fourth edition yet -- waiting for an ebook to be available in the UK -- but will be interested to see how much it actually simplifies things. And whether the templates bear any resemblance to the ones I created for my own private use in v5 onwards...
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by fhtess65 »

Yes, I read through that post. Looks like the 4th edition marks a bit of a shift.

Curious to see if any bookseller in the UK other than Amazon (which I boycott) will have the book for sale. EE's publisher has already told me if I want it in Canada I'll have to buy it from Jeff Bezos's monolith.

I'm still not sure this new edition will convince me to return to ESM's citation style.
ColeValleyGirl wrote: 16 Mar 2024 11:26 Evidence Explained: Third Edition vs. Fourth Edition.

I don't have a copy of the fourth edition yet -- waiting for an ebook to be available in the UK -- but will be interested to see how much it actually simplifies things. And whether the templates bear any resemblance to the ones I created for my own private use in v5 onwards...
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

fhtess65 wrote: 16 Mar 2024 17:18 Curious to see if any bookseller in the UK other than Amazon (which I boycott) will have the book for sale. EE's publisher has already told me if I want it in Canada I'll have to buy it from Jeff Bezos's monolith.

I'm still not sure this new edition will convince me to return to ESM's citation style.
I suspect my only option in the UK will be Amazon.

And ditto, but I want to check. I haven't embarked on redoing my sources with templates yet, so haven't backed any horse.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by t4ms »

Thanks for the post but no amount of convincing would ever see me use EE. It's hideous!

Tamara :)
The footnote would seem to be the smallest detail in a work of history. Yet it carries a large burden of responsibility, testifying to the validity of the work, the integrity (and the humility) of the historian, and to the dignity of the discipline.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

I would love to get a look at the new 4th edition of the EE book, if it weren't so expensive. However; like Teresa, I'm in Canada and it almost seems like nothing seems to be published and sold here. That makes two strikes against it.

Based upon what I've heard and read, the 4th edition appears to be a repackaging/condensing of the same concepts as ed. 3. From my perspective, that's the 3rd strike...

I will admit that, to the extent that it documents some industry-standard citation formats, the 3rd edition book is a useful reference. However; having played extensively with trying to create templates for the citations in the book, I don't think it will ever be more than a reference for me. So; I can't see me buying the 4th edition.

A side-note...
One thing I've noticed is that EE actually has two radically different citation approaches that are evident from the EE website, but the book seems to promote only one. The one in the book tends to be a classic layered approach and I had some limited success with templating that style. The other, from the EE website, tries to more-or-less document the ad hoc hierarchy of data on any website. It seems to have come about to handle sources that don't fit the classical author-title-publisher source paradigm promoted in the book. It is possible to template that ad hoc structure, but nearly impossible to do it in a way from which one can automatically generate a meaningful Title for a source. That is; unless one makes a special template for each site. Generating a meaningful source is a must for me, since I use a splitting approach for my sources and need a meaningful and unique source name. So; I've modified the layered approach by borrowing from several other citation styles and now appear to be able to generate almost all my citations using a single template. If FH7 had a free-form template to use for the exceptions, I believe I'd have everything I need. Just another reason why I probably won't buy the EE 4th edition.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by fhtess65 »

Jenny and Andy at CiteBuilder have added their versions of EE 4th ed templates to their site and they're not behind the paywall. https://cite-builder.com/basic/#. Just click on the first option. I haven't tried any yet, but at least it's good to get an idea. Great they made it available for everyone - I have a sub to their site, but I know not everyone will.
Gary_G wrote: 17 Mar 2024 12:45 I would love to get a look at the new 4th edition of the EE book, if it weren't so expensive. However; like Teresa, I'm in Canada and it almost seems like nothing seems to be published and sold here. That makes two strikes against it.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Thanks, Teresa;

I'll pop over and have a look at the templates. There could be some aspects that might be interesting.

By the way...
To develop my template; I went back to the basic, " Who?, What?, When?, Wherein?, Where is the source?", to determine the basic and absolutely "must have" fields and then incorporated those into a template having just, "document, website, source-of-source" layers. The template turned out to be VERY flexible. I've been throwing rocks at this all-singing-all-dancing template and haven't been able to break it or find something that really couldn't be cited; even artifacts. It works well enough that I'm worried about what I missed...
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Teresa;

I had a quick peek at the templates. I can immediately spot one serious limitation. The T10 templates lack enough granularity in the data fields to be able to generate a meaningful FH7 Title. This was one of the issues that I mentioned in my recent post regarding EE style. As in previous EE books; key data that doesn't fit the "book" paradigm seems to get dumped into an unstructured field. Because it's unstructured, the relevant items can't be extracted. That data just happens to often include data that is needed to automatically create an FH7 title for a given record. However; at least mentioning the T10 situation in the 4th ed. book is an improvement.

I still question the need for a dozen templates to handle basic citations. I think, with a bit of thought and some relaxation of existing overly strict punctuation/style rules, EE could have reduced the number substantially.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by AdrianBruce »

I notice from Chris Paton's blog that Evidence Explained 4th edition is available through its publisher in an ebook format. See https://genealogical.com/store/evidence ... h-edition/

It's $47.50 for the ebook as against $65.00. The ebook format is something that's available only on the Bookshelf platform - no, me neither - but it's described as a fixed page format, which will preserve the page numbering and format of the printed version. Plus, unlike a PDF, which would also preserve those things, there's no file that can be passed on. Further details in an FAQ from that URL.

I see no evidence that it can be used on Android - which would presumably be impractical anyway if the page looks exactly like the printed version. I'm also unclear from the FAQ how it's available in the UK as it talks about different countries.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Adrian;

Up until this recent edition, I used to get the ebook from Amazon and read it using the Kindle viewer. With it, one could copy small sections of text, but generally it wasn't enough to be much use to me. To my knowledge, there never has been an actual PDF version. The fact that they've also moved to a proprietary viewer that is even more restrictive is enough, In itself, for me to avoid buying a copy.

As for the physical book... Teresa will also tell you that the shipping charges make it ridiculously expensive to have it shipped to Canada. I can only imagine what the cost would be in the UK. That is why I won't even consider the hardcopy book. The shipping costs more than the book.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by fhtess65 »

The publisher REFUSES to ship outside the US. Says it has had bad experiences, so just have a copy shipped to an American friend/relative and get them to forward it to you :roll:

Offered the ebook, but it costs $70 Cdn...um, no. I love ebooks and do buy them (I have a Kobo), but I'm NOT paying that much money for something I can't hold in my hands.
Gary_G wrote: 10 Apr 2024 22:40 Adrian;
As for the physical book... Teresa will also tell you that the shipping charges make it ridiculously expensive to have it shipped to Canada. I can only imagine what the cost would be in the UK. That is why I won't even consider the hardcopy book. The shipping costs more than the book.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

I was unaware that they actually refused to send it. I just know that, in general, while there is no duty on books, the shipping costs to Canada from the USA are beyond ridiculous.

I once won a book on the Dear Myrtle forum. So, the book was free, but it cost the forum-owner more to ship it from Salt Lake to Calgary than it was worth. I felt so badly that I sent the forum-owner a donation to cover the shipping cost and have never ordered a book from the US since.

From my perspective, this situation may actually be a blessing in disguise. It highlights the there is a market niche that I hope some non-US author will fill. It would be a great deal of help to have a few genealogy books that were written with the non-US market in mind.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by fhtess65 »

Given we share a border, it's criminal how much it costs to send stuff across it. Helen Osborn is one UK author who writes good genealogy books - Genealogy: Essential Research Methods (2012) and Our Village Ancestors (2021). I have the former and am hoping to get the latter sometime this year.

Helen's chapter on referencing in Genealogy : ERM is very helpful - at least it was for me. Sadly, it doesn't appear any AB libraries have a copy, though your library should be able to ILL a copy for you from BC.

Simon Fowler's Family History : Digging Deeper is also very good, but doesn't deal much with citation.

I also found Finding your Scottish ancestors : techniques for solving genealogy problems by Kirsty Wilkinson very helpful as much of the book is about methodology that can be applied to any country. I can't recall off the top of my head how much time she devotes to sources/citations - I can check at work today.

Teresa
Gary_G wrote: 11 Apr 2024 12:57 I was unaware that they actually refused to send it. I just know that, in general, while there is no duty on books, the shipping costs to Canada from the USA are beyond ridiculous.

I once won a book on the Dear Myrtle forum. So, the book was free, but it cost the forum-owner more to ship it from Salt Lake to Calgary than it was worth. I felt so badly that I sent the forum-owner a donation to cover the shipping cost and have never ordered a book from the US since.

From my perspective, this situation may actually be a blessing in disguise. It highlights the there is a market niche that I hope some non-US author will fill. It would be a great deal of help to have a few genealogy books that were written with the non-US market in mind.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Thanks, Teresa.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Baysig8 »

Sending link below to a non-profit research and consumer advocate publication here in Australia, who, in Oct. 23 reviewed freight-forwarding options, when you don't have an address in USA. (Choice Magazine)

https://www.choice.com.au/shopping/onli ... g-services

If link here is blocked, just go to Choice Magazine and do a search for US freight-forwarding service.

I used a service a couple of years ago, on a purchase from the US. No problems at all and saved quite a bit of the product price.

(EE doesn't work for me, either with all European and Australian ancestors, but hope this tip helps).
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Vyger »

Firstly let me declare I am not a Source/Citation nerd however I would like to remodel my old sources to a more acceptable format. I want the data to direct me back to the original record and hold an image where available, no more complicated than that.

I remember many of the Evidence Explained models being incorporated into Rootsmagic and the plethora of choices for similar sources was mind blowing. Forums were repeatedly seeing the "which source should I use for....?" so I decided to avoid the Evidence Explained model which I believe was added to since those early days.

I found it strange that the EE forth edition was announced just after the publication of Simple Citations by Jeff La Marca. I was surprised that the EE model which was previously evolving to become more verbose was now becoming SIMPLIFIED.

I find the EE model overly complex for my personal needs. I don't find the La Marca model perfect but it is very close to what I want to achieve so will form the basis of my future system.

I have the hard and soft copies of Simple Citations and was shocked at the EE prices being mentioned earlier. Being in the UK I know the phrobitive shipping cost dilemma only to well. I also have personal experience of the Amazon print on demand low quality issues Rootsmagic users are still experiencing.

SC software copy is a PDF which, again personally, I prefer on my tablet, the hard copy is just bookshelf dressing.

Somewhere between Evidence Explained and Simple Citations there is a model which should suit any personal preference.

https://simplecitations.com/
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Jackson;

You may want to contact Teresa, who seems to try to keep just what she needs to find things again.
She blends the Strathclyde Style (which may actually be enough for your purposes) and bit of EE-style when needed.
She may even be able to send you some templates as an example.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Vyger »

Thanks Gary,

Thirty years ago Sourcing was far from a priority resulting in scant and sometimes just missing detail.

I have a project I have not yet started to parse what I can from my data into some standard format. The project is not on the priority list and I have not yet settled on a template format which completely suits my needs whilst remaining simple.

I will focus on it again later in the year, the La Marca book did help my thinking and the author describes how he spent many years in his consideration so it's close for my needs.

I would guess I am not alone in wishing that the entering of this Source/Citation data was easier and less time consuming in the dark and distant past.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Jackson;

Frankly, I still struggle with citations after many years. I've come to realize that this is not so much because of the style I chose, but because of the plethora of online and offline sources; each of which has their own distinct way of filing information. This means that I might develop a template today and find that the very next day I come across a resource that just doesn't work with my template. The best advice that I can offer, which may ease some issues for you, is to identify the sites you use regularly and develop/use templates only for those. For the ones that don't fit your template set, or which you use infrequently, one really needs a freeform citation template; something that FH7 still lacks. In the meantime, I would suggest that a generic citation might be tried. If one doesn't follow this approach, template development and testing can quickly eat up all one's research hours.

I realize that people often look for a universal template and that some, like simple citations, come close. However; my experience has been that it's a nice goal, but it just isn't truly realistic. There will always be outliers.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by fhtess65 »

You are far from alone. I too spent many of my early genealogy research years gathering the information and inputting it, while not even thinking about citing my sources (despite my training as a historian - go figure) - I was just so excited to see my ancestors' names in the documents!

Once I realized I should have done it, I spent years agonizing and trying to find a system that worked for me. I mostly have one now (Ancestral Sources has really helped with that), but keep tweaking things from time to time. Though I still groan some days knowing I have to spend time citing, in the end, I know it's for the best and seeing those lovely citations at the end does give some satisfaction.

For quick citations I use Cite Builder, a genealogy citation generator created by an Australian couple.
Vyger wrote: 22 May 2024 14:23 <SNIP>

I would guess I am not alone in wishing that the entering of this Source/Citation data was easier and less time consuming in the dark and distant past.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Vyger »

From what I know I would guess we are at opposite ends of the detailing spectrum. For me Book, Page, Repository are almost enough. In the case of a book I may well add Author(s) and maybe ISBN but that's about it, I don't need more.

Don't forget I'm essentially a Lumper. In the case of Census records I would look to build into a template the commonality of all Census records.

You mentioned sites, differently for me sites, libraries etc are repositories so not specific to the source. If Ancestry goes bust as a Repository I can return to the record elsewhere.

I have a fairly good idea what I want to achieve and just want something robust which works well into the future. This will take a fair investment in time, I will need to examine each existing Source and the variable data entry patterns to see what I can parse. My intention is to attack each Old Source with a script at Gedcom level and replace with the New Source Templated Format.

Before I invest in any of that I need to see that FH concatenates templated fields to standard Gedcom on export. Rootsmagic do this but at present FH do not.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Vyger »

fhtess65 wrote: 22 May 2024 15:11 I was just so excited to see my ancestors' names in the documents!
I believe the majority of researchers would identify with that Teresa :roll:
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Jackson;

From what you recently said about what you need in a citation, I'd suggest using a pure Strathclyde style.
It combines the concepts of footnotes and bibliographic information into very compact citations.
The style guide is freely available at their site and making fully compliant citation templates is a breeze.
The Essentials collection in FH7 has some elements of the Strathclyde style, but is not fully compliant to the standard.
Trying the Strathclyde variant from Referencing for Genealogists: Sources and Citation may also work for you.
Based on your stated criteria, which are pretty basic, even Simple Citations might be overkill.
Last edited by Gary_G on 22 May 2024 15:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by Gary_G »

Vyger wrote: 22 May 2024 15:35
fhtess65 wrote: 22 May 2024 15:11 I was just so excited to see my ancestors' names in the documents!
I believe the majority of researchers would identify with that Teresa :roll:
Yes. We all start out that way. Then we start to get more information and find it difficult to keep things straight. :D
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Re: For citation nerds

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

I was lucky (or maybe I just had the right mindset) and I started sourcing as soon as I started my family history. For a while I adopted my own 'standards' but when Evidence Explained came along in 2007 (and it seemed to be the only game in town back then) I switched to that (as far as I could -- FH didn't support italics back then).

Creating the sources manually was laborious and error prone (I'm a splitter so citations were almost never an issue), so I incorporated the ability to generate them from templates into that long-forgotten program GenQuiry (which was conceived as a Research Manager).

When the Create Source from Template Plugin came along, I switched to that (and replaced GenQuiry, which was hard to support because MS Access is a real pain, and never really achieved great take-up) with the Research Planner plugin.

I'm still on the fence as to what I'm going to do in FH7:
  • Stick with Generic Sources, Evidence Explained and a successor plugin to Create Source from Template (which I'm working on).
  • Switch to Templated Sources and use Evidence Explained version 4. If I go this route I'll need to develop a set of templates -- I wouldn't attempt to cover everything, just the stuff I need).
  • Switch to Templated Sources and use a Strathclyde/Ian Macdonald approach. Again, I would need to develop a set of templates unless somebody beats me to it.
Option 1 has the advantage of not needing to rework stuff (honestly, who cares about italics?) and quasi-Gedcom compliance (not that I'm much bothered about that). I stuff everything in the title, so footnotes are great but not so much the bibliography (which doesn't matter to me because I only publish my research on line). If I cared about bibliographies, I'd develop the successor plugin as a DEA -- Create Generic Source Record/Prepare Citation then invoke the DEA to populate source and citation -- shout now if that makes sense to you and I'll do it because it will still work for me).

Option 2 involves effort -- new templates, updating all sources -- but I get italics (meh) and a bibliography.

Ditto Option 3.

As a completist I now have an e-copy of EE4 (courtesy of a river that isn't the Thames).

However, given that I'm committed to creating the successor plugin to Create Source from Template, I might end up with Option 1.

Unless somebody argues me out of it (cue all the usual suspects)
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