* [On Hold] Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

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rcpettit
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[On Hold] Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by rcpettit »

I'm use to how Gramps seperates events from facts and was trying to do the same thing in FH. I created a Tab called attributes that I have things such as SSN, Familysearch ID, Findagrave ID, hair color and so forth. The problem is if I add something to these, it is also displayed under the facts tab. I've search the help and forums to prevent this but so far no luck. Adding an option to hide attributes in the Facts tab will help to only show events and timelines would make for a cleaner list.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Do you want to move all attributes? Including Residence and Occupation, which seem to me to be important in a individual's "timeline".
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by rcpettit »

Residence and Occupations to me are events as both can change over time in a persons life. Things like SSN, Familysearch ID and such very seldom change over time and are placed under a Attribute tab I created. I also created a tab for flags for never married, no children, End of Line, etc.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

So you want the ability to move a set of Attributes ( using the Gedcom/ FH terminology but not all of them.

Have you considered using Sort Dates to move items to the bottom of the Facts tab?
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by rcpettit »

That is what I'm doing for now. But now its an extra step cause I have to put in a sort date to move them to bottom of list.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by tatewise »

Would it be acceptable if those chosen facts were automatically listed at the top of the Facts tab before the Birth Event?

The following technique will achieve that.
You can either use the Custom fact set, or create an Attributes fact set, or any other name of your choice.
Copy the Standard Attributes such as SSN and Physical Description (hair colour) to your chosen fact set.
Copy your custom facts such as Familysearch ID and Findagrave ID to your chosen fact set and delete the original fact.
Now you can set the Normal Time Frame of all those facts to Pre-Birth which is not usually used by other facts.
Ensure your chosen fact set is higher in precedence than the Standard fact set in the Fact Sets... dialogue so they <eclipse> the Standard facts they were copied from. Note that when exported, such facts will still use the GEDCOM standard tags.

Close FH and reopen to ensure the new Fact Set settings are applied. This step is crucial.

Whenever you add one of those chosen facts to an Individual, they will automatically appear in the Facts tab at the top before the Birth Event and no extra steps are involved.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Thanks, Mike. I was away from my PC and didn't trust my memory on the details.

There's an argument, I think, for a value of Normal Time Frame that sorts facts to the end, after Post-Death.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by tatewise »

I agree that some new Normal Time Frame options of say First and Last to position facts before or after all other time frames would offer a useful feature. Reports, in particular Narrative Reports, seem to handle such concepts.

However, that would not allow such facts to be excluded from the Facts tab and listed on a custom tab instead as per OP.
IMO that needs an enhancement to the Advanced > Summary Template to allow {blank} to exclude the fact from the Facts tab in the same way that a Sentence Template {blank} excludes the fact from a Narrative Report.
i.e. Adjust an existing feature rather than add yet another user interface setting to hide facts.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

tatewise wrote: 16 Jul 2023 09:50 I agree that some new Normal Time Frame options of say First and Last to position facts before or after all other time frames would offer a useful feature. Reports, in particular Narrative Reports, seem to handle such concepts.

However, that would not allow such facts to be excluded from the Facts tab and listed on a custom tab instead as per OP.
Perhaps the OP will let us know whether they have a burning need for an additional tab (which IMO is less likely to get implemented) or whether sorting certain facts to the bottom meets the underlying need for a cleaner timeline.

Both approaches require the user to edit the definition for the fact type(s) concerned; the Normal Time Frame is on the first screen that opens when you start editing the fact type whereas the Summary Template for the Facts tab is under Advanced (a place many users won't venture).

Moreover an additional tab would either need to be created manually by the user (and updated whenever a fact type they hadn't catered for was required) OR would need to be developed by CP, to display all the Facts the user has specified should not be displayed on the main Facts tab, presumably with all the features of the Facts tab except the Add Fact field would need to only display eligible facts.

All in all, some extra Normal Time Frame options sound more usable, more useful and more likely to be implemented.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by rcpettit »

I'm not wanting the developers to add a attributes tab, we can do that on our own. I' was wondering if there was a way to hide attributes from displaying under the Facts tab. To me its too distracting having them showing on the timeline and just have them under their own tag.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Does sorting to the top (or bottom) meet your need?

If not, I'll move this back to the New Wish List Request forum for you to work up into a proposal (simply: what you want to see, what the benefits are, possibly an example from elsewhere.) I advise not using the word attribute but stick to fact to avoid confusion. I also advise considering where you'll add these invisible facts.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by tatewise »

Presumably, once a custom tab has been created to display the 'hidden' facts, then that has the mechanism for adding those facts in much the same way the Main tab has for adding Birth, Death, Marriage facts, etc.

A few 'hidden' facts could even be added to the Main tab without needing a custom tab.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

tatewise wrote: 16 Jul 2023 19:38 Presumably, once a custom tab has been created to display the 'hidden' facts, then that has the mechanism for adding those facts in much the same way the Main tab has for adding Birth, Death, Marriage facts, etc.

A few 'hidden' facts could even be added to the Main tab without needing a custom tab.
But OP doesnt want CP to create a new tab:
rcpettit wrote: 16 Jul 2023 18:42 I'm not wanting the developers to add a attributes tab, we can do that on our own. I' was wondering if there was a way to hide attributes from displaying under the Facts tab. To me its too distracting having them showing on the timeline and just have them under their own tag.
Or are you suggesting a new kind of custom tab?

And what happens to the Add Fact button for the main tab? Are this new kind of hidden fact excluded? Im not sure I'd want to add a fact that immediately vanished...
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by tatewise »

CP don't need to create a special tab. A standard Property Box custom tab will work perfectly well.
In the FHUG Knowledge Base Downloads, there are several Property Box custom tabs available.
Most of them display the details of one or more type of fact, e.g. Census, Contact Info, Military, To Do Lists, Wills.
Enter the data into the fields and the fact gets automatically created without using any Add button.

As I said, it is just the same as entering the Date &/or Place for Birth, Death & Marriage on the Main tab.
Please try an experiment with one or other of those Property Box tab downloads and you will see how entering data into the fields on those tabs automatically creates the facts. That can be confirmed currently by viewing the Facts tab but if the 'hidden' facts feature was implemented then they would not appear there. However, they would always appear in the All tab.

The Facts tab Add Fact button would not be able to list such 'hidden' facts in the same way as it cannot list facts subject to the current Fact Type dialogue Hidden tick option.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

The problem with using Custom tabs (with which I am familiar, Mike but thanks for the lecture) for data entry is the complexity of creating them, and the fact that they could multiply alarmingly with this approach.

If you have several Attribute types you want to exclude from the Facts tab (which I guess would have to be renamed?), each of which has a date and value and possibly place/address associated with them, that's four fields you need to create. If you have a number of such 'excluded' facts, that's a lot of work with an interface that is daunting to many users.

What if you have multiple values for the same attribute? Oh, whoops, to add this simple piece of data, I need to create/edit a data entry form for it. Really?????

How do you flag them? Show media? You'll tell me: the All tab, but that's also not the most user-friendly interface.

While we're at it, asking users to modify the Advanced > Summary Template to signify that a fact is excluded from the main Facts tab is a lot less simple than adding another value to the Fact Type's Display Settings tick boxes.

I know the OP is using simple attributes as an example of what they want to exclude from the Facts tab, but there should be nothing stopping the feature being used for any Fact Type at all -- somebody will come up with a custom event they want to record but not see in the timeline.

I think we're looking at:
  • either: asking for a marker that can be applied to certain Fact Types that suppresses their creation and display on the Facts tab, and leaving it to Intermediate/Advanced users to create Custom Tabs to create/display them according to their needs. This does run the risk of inexperienced users 'losing' fact types -- having no way to create the relevant fact.
  • or: asking for the ability to exclude selected Fact Types from the Facts tab and create/display them on some sort o 'Secondary Facts' tab with all the features of the Facts tab. This has the advantage that it's simpler for Beginners to understand (only one UI for Facts) and still allows more experienced user to take the Custom Tab route.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by tatewise »

rcpettit has not responded to your question: "Does sorting to the top (or bottom) meet your need?"
Until we know the answer to that any detailed discussion is somewhat pointless.

Regarding the risk of inexperienced users 'losing' fact types and having no way to create the relevant fact, IMO that can already happen with the Fact Types dialogue Hide button.

I think your first option is what the OP is requesting and is only for Intermediate/Advanced users.
The Help could explain the feature is intended for simple unique Attributes with no date, place, media, flags, etc.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

tatewise wrote: 17 Jul 2023 17:41 rcpettit has not responded to your question: "Does sorting to the top (or bottom) meet your need?"
Until we know the answer to that any detailed discussion is somewhat pointless.
rcpettit wrote: 16 Jul 2023 18:42 I'm not wanting the developers to add a attributes tab, we can do that on our own. I' was wondering if there was a way to hide attributes from displaying under the Facts tab. To me its too distracting having them showing on the timeline and just have them under their own tag.
I was interpreting this as restating a request to hide them, which sorting doesn't fulfil. (I will raise a separate New Wish List Request for First and Last Time Frame options, as I think that had wider value and is more likely to be popular.
tatewise wrote: 17 Jul 2023 17:41 I think your first option is what the OP is requesting and is only for Intermediate/Advanced users.
Thar doesn't mean we oughtn't as a group take the interests of other users into account.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

While I think about it, how does the sorting option play with dated facts.... My memory might be failing me, but I can't recall if a fact with a date post birth can be created in the e.g. Pre-birth timeframe?
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by LornaCraig »

ColeValleyGirl wrote: 17 Jul 2023 18:08 While I think about it, how does the sorting option play with dated facts.... My memory might be failing me, but I can't recall if a fact with a date post birth can be created in the e.g. Pre-birth timeframe?
Yes it can be created. You just get the usual kind of warning come up , "Possible Error. Date is later than the individual's birth date" if it's supposed to be pre-birth. And if it's only the sort date that's in the wrong timeframe there is no warning at all.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by rcpettit »

Sorry, just go my computer back up this morning after installing a new OS on one of my drives messed up and wiped all my drives. Glad I make lots of backups. What I'm used to is Events and Facts as two different things, but a lot of programs treat them the same. In the attributes tab I created because Facts was hard coded in so couldn't change it's name, the facts are still attached to each individual person, it's just that they are located in their own tab. Having facts mixed in with events is just so much clutter for me. Most of the facts I use don't need dates such as Familysearch ID, Findagrave ID, Social Security Number and such. Since FH still hasn't added Familysearch to their search sites, it's easier for me to just open the tab, enter the ID so I can go back to it later and not hidden amongst a bunch of events. When creating a fact, just have a box to select saying not to show under Facts tab so it's hidden when the Facts tab is open. Ok Gramps spoiled me with the way it treats facts and places but I'm making due with FH.
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Re: Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

Post by Vyger »

I am a recent migrant to Family Historian and I wanted to add another possible solution to this problem based on options I miss which were available within my previous software.

One of the first quirks I noticed with Family Historian was that ALL my Fact/Events were printed in Narrative reports, this included several repeating sanity check Attributes like the OP cited, "never married, no children, End of Line" and widower etc. I discovered the option described by Mike Tate to add {blank} in the sentence template to disable those Attributes from printing, the method works for reports but not the OP requirement and is a workaround rather than design.

The Fact List in my Property Box is cluttered with many Attributes I do not need to see on a daily basis and if I did these would be available on the ALL tab. Making a comparison with Fact Options in my previous software appears to be a constructive move, a more obvious choice to users and desirable in a number of other areas.

A Check Box for Prop Box would appear to solve the OP issue, the other output/display options would also be beneficial. The Property Box Cog Wheel could have a toggle Show All / Show Custom to toggle between Fact Types Custom setting and Default view, see below previous software options.

fact-type-other-software.jpg
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Providing such options would also make FH more flexible in many other ways, for example I had many Facts disabled for Gedcom Output so I could output a skeleton tree to online services without many Facts which contained lots of Notes I wasn't happy to disclose.

I know if the option existed to NOT display certain Facts/Attributes in the Property Box Fact Tab there would be many that I would apply that option to and each users preference would be different. Displaying ALL should naturally be default and if the user prefers the Custom List View this preference should be remembered by FH session to session.

fact-type-fh.jpg
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I believe such a programmed solution would be much more intuitive and provide more flexibility in various output areas. The suggestion would add more flexibility as the OP wished without adding to the screen real estate the Property Box occupies now.
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Re: [On Hold] Seperate Facts and attributes in property box

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Item placed On Hold as no clear definition of a proposal was agreed after lengthy discussion
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