* Add religion to baptism fact

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ACGenea
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Add religion to baptism fact

Post by ACGenea »

Hello,
Is it possible to add the religion to the baptism fact? When a person is baptized I would like to know to which church/religion he/she belongs.
For example in the Netherlands we have 'Doopsgezinden' (Baptists) who are baptized when the are grown-up. I would like to be able to add a religion field (for example: Doopsgezind) to the baptism fact so it would show up in the individual narative something like: 'He was baptized (Doopsgezind) on january 28, 1762 in Surhuisterveen.'

Is that possible?

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Jane
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by Jane »

You can either add a labelled text field in the note and include that in your sentence template, or simply add a Religion attribute to provide an additional sentence, or just customise the sentence on the event when you want to include the religion in the sentence.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by Mark1834 »

Unfortunately, no, other than by adding a note comment, which is rarely the ideal solution.

The best option might be to create a custom fact with a more descriptive name (e.g., Baptism (Baptist)). You can then tailor the way it is reported to your preferred style.

Edited as Jane replied at the same time - all those options are valid, but the optimum may depend on how many different religions you want to record. As in most things FH, there is rarely a one-size-fits-all solution, and it depends both on your data and what you want to achieve.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by arthurk »

Jane wrote: 27 Oct 2023 12:23 You can either add a labelled text field in the note and include that in your sentence template....
Mark1834 wrote: 27 Oct 2023 12:28 Unfortunately, no, other than by adding a note comment, which is rarely the ideal solution.
If I needed to, I wouldn't have a problem putting it in the Note field as ordinary (non-labelled) text. You could argue that that's what the Note field is for - things that don't fit anywhere else.

Taking a different approach, if they were baptised in a church another possibility would be to include the denomination as part of the Place or Address.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by ACGenea »

Thank you all for your replies.

I didn't know about labeled text fields in notes, but I tried it and that seems to work for now. Maybe I'll make a custom fact when I know a little bit more about Family Historian.

Have a good weekend,

Arjanne
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by AdrianBruce »

If you go to the All Tab for that person's property window, and right-click the baptism fact, you will see a surprisingly long list of items that can be added to the baptism event. One of them is "Religious Affiliation". This will then be visible from the All Tab, of course, but can be added into the Narrative Sentence by inserting the Religious Affiliation code via the Data Reference Assistant.

Hmm - not sure I knew about that one myself!
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by Mark1834 »

Me neither! Think I might even use it myself to mark Catholic and non-conformist baptisms... 😊
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by AdrianBruce »

Mark1834 wrote: 27 Oct 2023 14:00 ... Think I might even use it myself to mark Catholic and non-conformist baptisms... 😊
Indeed... Looking at the GEDCOM specification (considered A Bad Idea by some), Religious Affiliation is part of the Event_Detail structure, which means it's also part of all the individual events, attributes and the family events and attributes (sort of). Which means it can be held against marriages as well, for instance.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by arthurk »

AdrianBruce wrote: 27 Oct 2023 13:40 If you go to the All Tab for that person's property window, and right-click the baptism fact, you will see a surprisingly long list of items that can be added to the baptism event. One of them is "Religious Affiliation". This will then be visible from the All Tab, of course, but can be added into the Narrative Sentence by inserting the Religious Affiliation code via the Data Reference Assistant.
Nice find, Adrian - and it looks as though it can also be used in the Facts tab of the Property box, which would give greater visibility.

Incidentally, the same list of items seems to be available for more or less any fact type - as you wrote (below) while I was typing. I hope this isn't going to call into question my "anything goes" approach to Notes....
AdrianBruce wrote: 27 Oct 2023 14:44 Indeed... Looking at the GEDCOM specification (considered A Bad Idea by some), Religious Affiliation is part of the Event_Detail structure, which means it's also part of all the individual events, attributes and the family events and attributes (sort of). Which means it can be held against marriages as well, for instance.
Yes, but remember that the religion/denomination in which someone marries isn't necessarily one to which they're actually affiliated.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by tatewise »

It would be more rational to use the standard GEDCOM Baptism event and the Religious Affiliation field.
The standard Baptism event is recognised by all genealogy products better than a custom fact.
e.g. In FH the Baptism event can appear instead of a missing Birth event and get used in estimating the birth and death dates of this person &/or close relatives.

In Sentence Templates (and elsewhere) the Religious Affiliation field is accessed using the {%FACT.RELI%} code.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

arthurk wrote: 27 Oct 2023 14:52 Yes, but remember that the religion/denomination in which someone marries isn't necessarily one to which they're actually affiliated.
Which is perhaps an argument for recording it against the marriage fact and not the person.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by arthurk »

ColeValleyGirl wrote: 27 Oct 2023 14:59
arthurk wrote: 27 Oct 2023 14:52 Yes, but remember that the religion/denomination in which someone marries isn't necessarily one to which they're actually affiliated.
Which is perhaps an argument for recording it against the marriage fact and not the person.
Indeed - for a marriage in particular I thought of suggesting that the affiliation might apply more to the ceremony (or venue or celebrant) than the participants. But does the Gedcom definition support this understanding, and would it conflict with other places in FH where Religious Affiliation might be used?
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by Mark1834 »

For me, it's definitely a feature of the event, not the participants. The affiliation of where the event took place is unambiguous. Is everybody associated with a religious event associated with the religion (particularly if they were a child/infant at the time so could not give consent)...?
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by arthurk »

Mark1834 wrote: 27 Oct 2023 15:21 For me, it's definitely a feature of the event, not the participants.
I'd agree (for marriages at least) - but is this supported by the underlying data structure?

For example, if you wanted to run a query to find Religious Affiliations, would it be a fact query or a person query? And if it's finding people, then in cases where someone has married in a different religion to the one they belong to, surely it will produce a rather anomalous set of results?

One example where Religious Affiliation might apply more to the person is an ancestor of mine who was a Wesleyan local preacher. I have this in a custom 'Appointment' attribute (also used for churchwardens, parish clerks etc) with 'Wesleyan local preacher' as the value, but what if I were to change this to 'local preacher' with Wesleyan as the religious affiliation? (But on the other hand there's a standard Religion attribute...)
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Mark1834 wrote: 27 Oct 2023 15:21 Is everybody associated with a religious event associated with the religion
In the case of the Church Wardens at a small Church of Wales parish church who were the witnesses at almost all the marriages there over a very long period... No. They were staunch Particular Baptists or some other variety of non-Conformist.

And why on earth would a Baptist be a Parish Church Warden? I hear you ask.

There were approaching (if not actually) zero Anglican residents in the Parish (even the incumbent didn't live there) but the parish was still required to have a church warden. By custom and practice, the role was rotated through the head of household of the small number of houses closest to the church. (It was a rural parish without a village centre).

As so, at a marriage at this particular parish Church, the only member of the Anglican denomination present was usually the celebrant. Ditto for funerals (if they waited for the incumbent to turn up, which they didn't always). And most of the baptisms were adult baptisms, forced on one or more of a couple seeking to get married.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by jbtapscott »

Going off at a slight tangent to the recent posts, but back to the first few posts on this topic, it would be good (IMHO) if Nick could add a "Denomination" field in AS that could populate the "Religious Affiliation" value - most of the Baptism records / transcripts I have include a value for this.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by Mark1834 »

tatewise wrote: 27 Oct 2023 14:58 It would be more rational to use the standard GEDCOM Baptism event and the Religious Affiliation field.
The standard Baptism event is recognised by all genealogy products better than a custom fact.
True up to a point, but how many products recognise the Religious Affiliation field? I created a test project containing both Baptism and Marriage facts with the Religious Affiliation field set. I then exported the data using the built-in GEDCOM export, the Export GEDCOM plugin with its standard configuration, and the plugin set with RM as the target app.

All three options maintained the correct GEDCOM designation in the file, but all the Religious Affiliation data were lost on import to RM as its data structure does not support it.

So if you want the most elegant FH solution, I think we all agree that Adrian's suggestion is the way to go. However, if you prioritise portability, putting the extra detail in a plain text note is probably preferred.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by KFN »

Mark1834 wrote: 27 Oct 2023 17:26
tatewise wrote: 27 Oct 2023 14:58 It would be more rational to use the standard GEDCOM Baptism event and the Religious Affiliation field.
The standard Baptism event is recognised by all genealogy products better than a custom fact.
True up to a point, but how many products recognise the Religious Affiliation field? I created a test project containing both Baptism and Marriage facts with the Religious Affiliation field set. I then exported the data using the built-in GEDCOM export, the Export GEDCOM plugin with its standard configuration, and the plugin set with RM as the target app.

All three options maintained the correct GEDCOM designation in the file, but all the Religious Affiliation data were lost on import to RM as its data structure does not support it.

So if you want the most elegant FH solution, I think we all agree that Adrian's suggestion is the way to go. However, if you prioritise portability, putting the extra detail in a plain text note is probably preferred.
This is the major reason I stopped using and will not use RM for genealogy work, because they don't prioritize support for GEDCOM! But then I'm always chastised for bringing up GEDCOM compliance! All facts can use the "Religious Affiliation". I'm an Agnostic but it was suggested to me that because my wife was a Catholic we needed to be married in a Catholic church so only my marriage event shows a Catholic Affiliation, not me as a personal attribute!
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by tatewise »

Mark1834 wrote: 27 Oct 2023 17:26 ..., but how many products recognise the Religious Affiliation field?
Yes, it is a dilemma. Do we use a standard GEDCOM field and if a product does not support that field complain to their support team, or do we pander to the poor support and use something else that is less elegant?
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by AdrianBruce »

According to the GEDCOM Standard (which may or may not have relevance to any other software you are looking at)
RELIGIOUS_AFFILIATION:= {Size=1:90}
A name of the religion with which this person, event, or record was affiliated.
Hmm - "person, event, or record" covers all the bases, I think! So the only sensible way is to say that if it's held against a Marriage Event, then it's the denomination applicable to the marriage service. But - that's your decision and someone else reading your GEDCOM may assume otherwise.

In my case, I think I'd probably stick a note record into my GEDCOM to say that the denomination applies to the service and not necessarily to the parties.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by mjashby »

Prior to the commencement of Marriage Registration in England, i.e. 1 July 1837, back to the commencement of Parish Registers, with the exception of the period of the Interregnum 1649-1660 when Civil Marriage replaced Church of England marriages; and the dubious peculiarities of 'Fleet Marriages' in London, only 3 legal forms of Marriage are to be found: Church of England for the vast majority, Quaker and Jewish. It's pretty safe to assume that Quaker and Jewish Marriages were exclusively between couples of those specific faiths at the time of their marriage, but as for the vast majority who's only option was to marry in 'Church'.....

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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by tatewise »

As Adrian suggests there is ambiguity in the GEDCOM 5.5.1 specification caused by Religious Affiliation being used in two contexts: (1) Fact subfield Religious Affiliation, (2) Religious Affiliation Attribute.

That is clarified in the GEDCOM 7 specification which distinguishes between (1) <g7:RELI> and (2) <g7:INDI-RELI>
Note that all Individual & Family Events & Attributes use the EVENT_DETAIL structures.

Page 47
EVENT_DETAIL :=
RELI <Text> {0:1} g7:RELI

Page 65
3.3.2.1. Individual Attributes
RELI religion g7:INDI-RELI A religious denomination to which a person is affiliated or for which a record applies.

Page 86
RELI (Religion) <g7:RELI>
A religious denomination associated with the event or attribute described by the super‐structure.
RELI (Religion) <g7:INDI-RELI>
An Individual Attribute (p.65). See also INDIVIDUAL_ATTRIBUTE_STRUCTURE (p.50).
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by KFN »

mjashby wrote: 27 Oct 2023 20:45 Prior to the commencement of Marriage Registration in England, i.e. 1 July 1837, back to the commencement of Parish Registers, with the exception of the period of the Interregnum 1649-1660 when Civil Marriage replaced Church of England marriages; and the dubious peculiarities of 'Fleet Marriages' in London, only 3 legal forms of Marriage are to be found: Church of England for the vast majority, Quaker and Jewish. It's pretty safe to assume that Quaker and Jewish Marriages were exclusively between couples of those specific faiths at the time of their marriage, but as for the vast majority who's only option was to marry in 'Church'.....

Mervyn
AdrianBruce wrote: 27 Oct 2023 20:12 According to the GEDCOM Standard (which may or may not have relevance to any other software you are looking at)
RELIGIOUS_AFFILIATION:= {Size=1:90}
A name of the religion with which this person, event, or record was affiliated.
Hmm - "person, event, or record" covers all the bases, I think! So the only sensible way is to say that if it's held against a Marriage Event, then it's the denomination applicable to the marriage service. But - that's your decision and someone else reading your GEDCOM may assume otherwise.

In my case, I think I'd probably stick a note record into my GEDCOM to say that the denomination applies to the service and not necessarily to the parties.
In the case of "Religious Affiliation" it can be added/used in two contexts:

1) As an Attribute of the person, the RELI tag. For example:
1 RELI Jewish
1 RELI Church of England

2) As part of an event or maybe an attribute (not all together likely)
1 BURI
2 RELI Church of England

1 MARR
2 RELI Jewish

Therefore for people who are of and only of a particular religion we could assume that they were married or buried using the same religion as their attribute (#1) but if they had no personal religious affiliation or where married/buried/other using a religion (or none religion) they were not personally affiliated with then this would be noted as part of that event (#2).

For example if a Catholic (personal Affiliation) was married at a justice of the piece we could/should indicate in the marriage tag:
1 MARR
2 RELI None

or input some other religion.

Remember too, the personal affiliation can have FROM/TO date so if they stop being affiliated with one religion or converted to another they could have multiple RELI attributes with dates relating to their affiliation.
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Re: Add religion to baptism fact

Post by mjashby »

Personally, I tend to ignore an individual's 'religious affiliation' unless it is clear that they followed a specific belief by personal choice and not simply due to outside influence or compulsion, e.g. until 1791 the government of the United Kingdom required attendance at church services of the Church of England (the mother Church of the Anglican Communion and a state Church) at least twice a year and non-compliance was punishable by a fine.. There were relatively few exceptions to this legal requirement, i.e.
- Those who had a lawful or reasonable excuse to be absent, such as illness, travel, or work;
- Those who attended a different place of worship where the common prayer and service of God were used, such as a chapel of ease or a licensed meeting house.
- Those who were exempted by special acts of parliament, such as Quakers, Jews, and foreign Protestants.
- Those who were under the age of 16, or who were servants or apprentices living in the household of someone who attended church regularly.

So, to me, the simple record of a baptism, marriage or burial being officiated at a particular Anglican Church is not proof of anything other than the actual event.

Mervyn
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