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tatewise
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Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

When posting a message there is an option below to Notify me when a reply is posted but not ticked by default.
The User Control Panel > Board Preferences > Edit posting defaults has a Notify me upon replies by default option, which presumably would automatically tick that posting message option, but defaults to No.

In Duplicated Source Text in Ancestor Report Footnote (17581) KennethEvans said on Wed 8th Apr 2020 that most forums have such a feature enabled by default. There have been similar comments from other newcomers, and I suspect they do not return to review replies, as they think there are none, because they have not been notified.

What do others think?

Jane, is it possible to default that Board Preferences option to Yes for newcomers?
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by Jane »

I am pretty sure there is not a setting so I would have to hack the base code to do so, I would also be worried about complaints to Amazon where people hit the "spam" button when they receive the messages, as if I get too many complaints Amazon SES will fine me or suspend my account for sending spam.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

There's definitely no setting, Jane, it's a base code hack.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

Sorry, I don't understand why complaints would involve Amazon.
Just to be sure, you are saying the Forum admin software does not allow you to choose the User Control Panel > Board Preferences > Edit posting defaults Yes/No default values associated with the RESET button.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by Valkrider »

According to this article it can be done with a simple database query.

But Jane is not keen to do this which I understand but as @Mike says it would only be for threads where an individual had posted not all threads.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Sorry, I don't understand why complaints would involve Amazon
Google is your friend. Amazon SES = Amazon Simple Email Service, which Jane uses for the outgoing emails from the site.
According to this article it can be done with a simple database query
That query applies to version 3.3, not 3.2.7 where I don't think it's as simple.

Even if it was, it would be wrong to change a setting for existing users without their permission. (I certainly wouldn't want it to be set to ON by default for me). And, as Jane says, setting it to ON by default might cause problems with her Amazon SES account being marked as a spammer.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

I no way was I suggesting it be done for existing members, and I doubt if Colin was either.
It would only be the default for new members to be consistent with other forums.

If that setting cannot be changed, then can new members be advised about that User Control Panel option so they are aware that they will not be notified about replies automatically, to highlight that difference from other forums.

Still don't see why it would be considered spam as it would be one Email to one person at a time for nominated replies.
But if that is a real problem then we cannot support it.
The messages have an unsubscribe option at the bottom, so I suspect regular users would soon switch it off.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

The article Colin found included instructions for setting the option for existing users.

I'm not sure about 'consistent with other forums' -- I'm a member of a fair few forums and very few of them default to email notification (which is good, as I use forums so I don't have to clutter up my email in boxes). So it may be a case that some corners of the internet do things one way and some do it another rather than there's a single norm.

Emails can be considered spam if a user marks them as spam; or if too many emails are sent in a short time from the same address (Or even the same shared host -- which is a real pain if you're sharing a server with a spammer).

Given how much new readers read of the email they already get on joining, I'm not convinced theyd pay attention to anything about the UCP... but it's Jane's decision.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

I'll go with whatever decision is taken.

FYI: Over the last fortnight or so about 24 new members joined, but only 8 of them have posted anything.
A couple have posted 10 times and 4 times respectively. So about 20 notification Emails over 2 weeks.
That pattern is very similar all the way back to the beginning of the year.
Assuming regular posters who won't want bombarding with Emails will alter the option, it hardly amounts to an avalanche, and I would expect the Weekly Activity Summary Emails would amount to much more.

It seems unlikely that Emails directly related to recent postings would get marked as spam.
How many Weekly Activity Summary Emails get marked as spam?
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

I wonder how the activity profile will change when FH7 comes out.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Just a thought, but I wonder if it is legal to sign people up for emails without seeking their active consent first? From my reading pre-ticked boxes aren't valid any more.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

I suspect there are a number of other User Control Panel settings that might fall into that category.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Emails are a particular problem -- or rather sending emails without active consent. I think that's why Jane discontinued the FHUG mailing list (not the groups.io one, but the one that used to be associated with this site).
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by GeneSniper »

I only use 2 forums and both of them you have to request to be notified. Before I found this option was a thing I just looked back at questions I had asked or replied too (not many so not an issue), then I realised the forum gave indications as to where new post had been put up (Page icons at side of categories/topics).
I am expecting a nasty reply from Mike here :lol: :lol: , but you cannot expect to be nannied by the peeps who are here to help all the time. There is a Forum Usage Tips section 2 clicks away from Please Read Before Posting (Which I didn't and regretted, hence expected reply from Mike) that explains this to you. So for those who don't/can't be bothered to read it, why should you tick a box for them? Those who get the messages and don't want them will have to find out how to switch them off, so surely leaving as is and expecting those who don't get the messages to find out how to switch them on be any different. Maybe adding "and Forum Usage Tips" to the sentence "If you are new to Family Historian, please check out the pages on Knowledge Base Key Features for Newcomers" in the *Please Read BEFORE Posting topic. This would have made no difference for me as I didn't notice/read that post but I have no excuse for not knowing, it is there after all.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by LornaCraig »

tatewise wrote: 08 Apr 2020 13:18 ....I suspect they do not return to review replies, as they think there are none, because they have not been notified.
Yes, I have sometimes noticed cases where a question has received several replies but the OP never gets back with a comment. On checking the OP's profile sometimes it shows that they have not visited the site again since they posted the question. In cases like this, is it worth sending them an email (manually) after a few days to advise them to check their topic for replies?
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

Lorna, I have considered doing that, and may have actually done so on occasions, but doesn't it fall into the same category as sending emails without active consent that Helen raised?

The ability to send such Emails is another User Control Panel > Board Preferences > Edit global settings > Users can contact me by email preset to Yes user option that arguably infringes the GDPR privacy rules.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by Valkrider »

I took some legal advice when GPDR first came out and the advice was if people sign up for a service like a forum or membership of an online organisation then communication with them by any means was not in breach of GPDR as they have the ability to configure the contacts from the site.

Whilst not being a lawyer this advice made sense to me and the organisation concerned has both a mailing list and a forum and people have the ability to turn off contact in exactly the same way that this forum does. Given this I don't think GDPR applies here and people have made a conscious effort to join the forum and communicate.

Many of the forums I belong to if you post in a thread you are automatically notified of replies which is what I personally prefer as it means I don't have to go looking for replies and can always turn the option off when the question has been answered or if I am no longer interested in the thread.

However, Jane doesn't want to do this and it is her call, but I must agree that I am in the same camp as @Mike and think it would be of benefit.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

Thank you Colin, that is quite helpful, and as you say it is Jane's call.

I switched on the Email notifications yesterday, and the messages received are reasonable as summarised below.
Notice that you only get one Email until you return and visit the topic, rather than an Email for every Reply.
Hello tatewise,
You are receiving this notification because you are watching the topic "... ..." at "Family Historian User Group". This topic has received a reply by ... ... since your last visit. No more notifications will be sent until you visit the topic.
If you want to view the newest post made since your last visit, click the following link:
https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... ead#unread
If you want to view the topic, click the following link: https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 32&t=17602
If you want to view the forum, click the following link: https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=32
If you no longer wish to watch this topic you can either click the "Unsubscribe topic" link found at the bottom of the topic above, or by clicking the following link: https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... atch=topic
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

I recently sent an Email to Billread to notify him about replies to his posting that had been waiting over 10 days.
In his Email reply to me he said:
Hi
I looked last night and posted again.
I must admit I thought I would get an email when someone replied to my post, so apologies for that!
Bill
Part of the problem is that the OPTIONS and ATTACHMENTS tabs below the edit box are usually not visible unless the user scrolls down, and why would they?
Could the edit box default to a slightly smaller size with its bottom edge aligned with 'Smilies are ON' on the right?
Could the amount of wasted space in the heading bars be reduced?

That would not only make the OPTIONS more visible but also the ATTACHMENTS tab too, which is frequently overlooked by users who want to post screenshots.

BTW:
I have had reply notification Emails enabled for most of the last week or so.
Did that have any undesirable effect on anything from an admin perspective?
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Mike, Jane is up to her eyeballs with her day job, and other things -- so customising the theme is probably a no-no. Especially as it's not possible to ensure that any customisations she does suit everyone, because screen sizes are so variable. And she's only customising (if I remember rightly) one theme, so anyone using a different theme would still have the issue.

FYI, I'd rather have a larger edit box than the one we've got now. And on my screen the initial edit box plus all the buttons and tick boxes below are fully visible.

I also doubt she has time to spend looking to see what effect your email notifications have -- or work how how it would scale if all users got the same. (Neither do I, for that matter).
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by LornaCraig »

I don't know what is in the email which people get when they first join, but perhaps it could contain something in BOLD CAPTIAL LETTERS advising them that if they want to be notified of replies to their posts they should use Control Panel > Board preferences > Edit posting defaults.

Incidentally if someone is looking for notification options they are quite likely to try Control Panel > Board preferences > Edit notification options which sounds like exactly what they want. But there is nothing there about notifications for replies to one's own posts! It's not obvious that it's in a different place under Edit posting defaults.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by tatewise »

That suggestion was made earlier and shot down for the reason that users don't seem to read the welcome message.
Also, the idea of setting it as a default was not liked for various reasons to do with GDPR, Amazon and spam.

If the welcome message highlighted the OPTIONS and ATTACHMENTS tabs below the edit box, then it might kill two birds with one stone ~ notifications and screenshots ~ and does not upset the defaults.
But it relies on users reading the message.
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Whatever we might do relies on users reading something -- either the welcome message, or the screen when they post, or the Please read before posting topic . At some point we have to make the assumption that users will read something, and not take responsibility for nannying them even further if they don't.

The only thing that doesn't is silently opting people in, and that requires changes to the Forum's info:privacy#forum_subscriptions_and_admin_messages|> Forum Subscriptions and Admin Messages (plus I foresee a bunch of questions asking how to turn the emails off).
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by LornaCraig »

tatewise wrote: 18 Apr 2020 11:15 That suggestion was made earlier and shot down for the reason that users don't seem to read the welcome message.
Understood, and I take Helen's point that we shouldn't have to 'nanny' people. But if it was in the welcome message at least it puts the onus back on them. If they don't read it that's their responsibility.

(And I do think it's unfortunate that the option to turn the notifications on is not in the Edit notification options panel! )
Lorna
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Re: Notify me upon replies option

Post by jelv »

Can the emails sent out notifying replies be customised? I can't remember what is in it, I think it has an unsubscribe from the topic, but a wonder if a link to https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/ucp.php?i ... &mode=post could be added with text explaining. If so it might be safe to change the default.

However I fully understand the issue with idiot users hitting the spam button instead of turning off the notifications. On another forum I belong too they've been added to spam blacklists a couple of times for that reason and it was a devil to get de-listed.
John Elvin
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