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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 17 Nov 2018 15:00

Those cross-reference links used to be at the bottom of every one of the How To Guides where nobody found them.
I moved them to the top in an attempt to make new users aware of 'search' options other than the Search box.
At the time I think Jane and maybe others thought it a good idea especially for the recent book style Alphabetic Index.
See Knowledge Base Index/Contents thread.
It would be preferable to keep them all in the same position, otherwise describing the 'standard' Knowledge Base namespace architecture becomes more difficult.

Can we keep a final decision on hold?
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 17 Nov 2018 15:50

I'm confident we'll be able to lose the 'About' and 'FAQS' if we get this page right... and probably even the Alphabetic title. I remain to be convinced that the Alphabetic Index for this particular subject adds anything. But we can hold off and review later.

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 17 Nov 2018 16:50

I've done some work on the first few sections -- I don't think there's any need to put another layer of abstraction/summarisation just to make them shorter.

Mike, what you think about this question: Do we want to provide some early guidance on different set of wiki hyperlinks – especially if we're expecting them to be created manually, or are the basics done automatically?

I'm thinking we might want to defer the answer out of basic concepts, if we need it at all?

Also, in Basic Concepts, is there any reason the work Hyperlinks is linked? especially as it's a circular link? What was the thinking here?

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 17 Nov 2018 17:11

On the subject of Basic Text Formatting and Page Formatting - Basic Text Style...

I agree it could all be combined in a single place, and preferably one that doesn't refer to the "scary" docuwiki (so we don't have to explain yet what that is) -- if you're happy, Mike, I'll move the missing content into the Editing Pages page and sunset the other page?

Having it in one place makes it easy to maintain as well.

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 17 Nov 2018 18:10

In Basic Concepts I added the last bullet point to explain that Hyperlinks do more than just navigate between pages.
Any further guidance on different types of wiki hyperlinks can wait until the later Adding hyperlinks or More advanced formatting techniques sections.

I thought it might make it clearer what we're talking about if the word Hyperlinks used the KB orange hyperlink style.

OK, copy the Font Colour section, but don't delete the original page as it is still referenced by live Contribute Your Knowledge. You can remove the cross-ref to it in Summary at the end.

Which particular dokuwiki references had you in mind?
Sometimes such cross-refs are more informative than replicating the details.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 17 Nov 2018 18:25

Re docuwiki, Page Formatting - Basic Text Style has the term peppered through the text (without any explanation) , whereas Basic Text Formatting has been changed to refer to "the editor" which makes more sense to me (and we can add a link to comprehensive docuwiki formatting documentation at the bottom of that page if we want to, perhaps with an explanatory note.)

Re Hyperlinks I understand why the last point was added but don't think they're such a novel concept any more that they need to be more highlighted than Knowledge Base or Pages...

No didn't intend to delete the other page until there were no links to it -- where are we going to keep the checklist of tidying up to be done at the end of all this?

Re Font colors do we need to refer to the Plugin at all -- do users need to know about it as long as they know the syntax to add colours?

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 17 Nov 2018 22:55

Regarding Knowledge Base > Page Formatting ~ Basic Text Styles, peppered is a bit strong as there is just one textual mention and one link to Knowledge Base > DokuWiki that gives the explanation, but I'm happy for them to be replaced by "the editor".

If I understand correctly, you are happy with the 4th bullet point, but don't like the orange colour of the word Hyperlink.
It is NOT meant to be a highlight, but simply a reinforcement of what Hyperlinks look like in the Knowledge Base, which is rather different from the underlined blue style used in most websites. Although some KB hyperlinks to external websites are actually blue. However, I don't feel too strongly about it.

We don't need a checklist for tidying up, as Tools > Backlinks tells us what other page(s) if any, link to the current page.

Where a feature is added by a Plugin, perhaps it can be mentioned via a link at the end of its section?
i.e. Something like: "For the interest of experts this feature requires the Color Plugin."
Otherwise that relationship might not appear anywhere unless we repeat sections in the Reference Material and add the Plugin relationship there, or have some other form of feature versus Plugin cross-reference.

In Knowledge Base > Getting Started ...

We are simply advising users that the Log Out option is in the Tools menu.
Otherwise how do they know? It is not visible when they Log In. It is up to users whether they use it.
And like you said when using Media, even visible buttons like Delete are not always obvious.

Don't think we need to say "the Animated Tutorial for beginners" and dissuade any one else from watching it.
We already say "Before you edit your first “real” page..." that implies beginners, so makes it a tautology.
And even old hands might like to refresh their memory.

I have reworded the next section and renamed it New Page Shortcuts.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 18 Nov 2018 10:47

Isn't English wonderful? I used peppered to mean sprinkled and you read it as covered liberally. No matter -- the phrase wasn't and isn't there in the page we agreed to keep.

Re Hyperlink, I think anybody using the site knows that the links are orange; and it's seriously confusing to have an active link that actually goes nowhere -- I originally thought the text was broekn and went to edit it to fix it.

Re Logout -- OK.

I've think the sections Basic Concepts/Getting Started are OK now?

I'm not convinced about renaming 'Adding Simple Content' (which describes something people will want to do) with 'New Page Shortcuts (which is jargon and so not immediately clear in the Table of Contents why it might be of interest) -- can we compromise on Adding Simple Pages, and leave the reference to shortcut forms in the body? I've also done a little rewording (it's the writing teacher in me -- sorry) to avoid using 'easy' and its variants repeatedly.

Re Structuring linked sections, I wonder if we should split "Edit and Save a Page" from "Basic Text Formatting" and incorporate it instead on a Page that has sections for all the Page operations? The Text Formatting Page can then have a second section for More Advanced Formatting Techniques?

Re mentioning Plugins at the end of a section that depends on them, I'm not sure. We haven't introduced the concept of Plugins at any point, other than as a Specialised Tool... Interrogating your approach: Why does it matter if a routine task is done with a Plugin -- it's the end that matters, not the means. I think I'd be happier with a single reference to Plugins (with link) at the end of each page that introduces something that depends on them e.g. Formatting, Media, whatever.

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 18 Nov 2018 22:50

I agree Basic Concepts and Getting Started are good.

The section New Page Shortcuts or Adding Simple Pages needs more consideration.
The pages themselves are neither simple nor the most straightforward as they have downloads or external links plus category tags that make them quite complex to create, especially for newcomers, c.f. Draft pages and Downloads in Knowledge Base (16371).
Also they are like your 'draft/hidden' pages, because they have no direct hyperlink, so creating them is unconventional.
That is why we produced the forms to make the process of creating those complex pages easier for users.
Despite that they will often still need text editing and perhaps screenshot images added.
So I am not sure how to convey that concept in a short title.
I'm convinced that Adding Simple Pages is misleading, as the pages being added are not simple.
Let me sleep on it.

Regarding structuring sections & pages, I was about to propose a similar strategy.
We need to go through all the existing section topics and agree a section & page structure for them all before proceeding.

Regarding Plugins, I think you need to consider some of the more complex examples.
The color Plugin only has one simple format, but others are best understood by reference to to the Plugin documentation plus a few representative examples.
Also, the standard wiki features are unlikely to go wrong, but Plugins sometimes need reinstalling by Jane, especially when the wiki needs rebuilding and they get overlooked. So informing the user about which features rely on Plugins may be useful, but I agree the concept of Plugins needs to be introduced early on.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 19 Nov 2018 08:28

I'm coming at this simple/Shortcut section from the viewpoint that it's the only thing most editors will ever do, and the form makes it very simple -- they can create a page without touching any of the rest of what we're documenting -- how many people edit their page after it's created, I wonder?

Simplest Way to Add Pages ? And include in the text the fact the forms provided are there to make the process of creating the most common pages quick/easy/whatever.

Re Plugins, I very definitely agree we need to document them -- just pondering how best to introduce them and not make a huge thing of them early on -- most users will never know or care about them.

Re the structure of sections and pages -- are you happy with the basic outline that we've got on Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Alternative Approach?

If so I suggest we need the following behind it:
  • A 'Formatting' page with sections for basic formatting and advanced formatting
  • A 'Manipulating Pages' page
  • A 'Hyperlinks' and 'Media' page (or possibly split this?)
  • A specialist tools page (or possibly split this into Plugins and Embedding?)
Do we want a separate Tips and Tricks page, or will its contents fit more naturally across the others -- i.e. a Tips and Tricks section in each?

And then as many reference pages as make sense?

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 19 Nov 2018 12:14

Download & Link Shortcuts
You are correct that these may well be the only way some users update the KB.
They may decide to start in the Downloads and Links, or Member Web Sites, or Contribute Your Knowledge sections.
The Downloads and Links and Member Web Sites need more about Signing Up For Editing and generally reworded so they stand alone, but with links to Contribute Your Knowledge for editing text and updating media techniques, etc.
Then perhaps Contribute Your Knowledge only needs advice in the Introduction to refer users to the Downloads and Links or Member Web Sites sections for adding those pages.

Plugins
Maybe early on we need to introduce Basic Concepts of the Wiki codes that are similar to the Forums edit page BBCodes.
Some have toolbar buttons for popular features, but can also be entered manually (just like BBCodes).
Others can only be entered manually, and some are standard Wiki codes, but others rely upon installed Plugins.

Section Structure
Call me pedantic, but I think we need more draft section headlines and hyperlinks to existing pages/section heads.
So that when you say we need the following behind it there are clearer links from top sections down to detail sections.
Whether we need any Tips & Tricks or Reference pages will then become clearer I hope.
I imagine it will mainly be a table of contents of headlines & hyperlinks plus tips, just like all the other How To Guides.

I wonder whether Creating & Managing Pages should come before or after Editing Existing Pages?
The order depends on what type of 'task' the user is embarking on, so introductory guidance is needed in each section.

Does Text Formatting need to be split into Font Styles (bold, italics, colours, smileys, etc) and Text Layout (headlines, paragraphs, lists, tables, boxes, etc)?

We need a clearer understanding of which features are Basic and which are Advanced.
That applies to each of Text Formatting, and Hyperlinks, and maybe KB Namespaces/Pages.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 19 Nov 2018 12:43

That sounds the way to go for Downloads & Links -- make Downloads and Links and Member Web Sites stand alone but with links between them and Contribute your knowledge (at what level -- I'd favour at the top level so they can see what else is possible rather than straight in to a Formatting page for example, but I could be persuaded... If we can avoid duplicating information that would be great, but needs to be balanced with making the first 'encounter' as painless as possible so people might come back for more.

Re Plugins, yes -- let's put something in Basic Concepts to break the ice -- then they won't come as a horrible shock when they're referred to later underpinning formatting hyperlinks media etc. (and the grisly detail can be kept to the 'specialist' sections).

OK, Pedantic (are you going to change your username :D ?) I'm not sure I understand -- can you lob an outline in here? I certainly agree that the items in the 'top' page need to lead to anchors within e.g. the Formatting or Page page, not to the top.

I'd put Creating & Managing Pages after Editing Existing Pages, as that's the order the majority of people are likely to come at it -- create a page using a shortcut form, then tart it up, then explore what else is possible. (And for users with more experience elsewhere, whichever route they go via (Edit and Save a Page, or the larger Creating and Deleting Page section, they'll probably stay to read the whole thing).

Text Formatting -- yes, splitting into Styles, Layout etc. might make sense -- can we do it without too much rework of existing material?

Shall we park the discussion of Basic versus Advanced (which we only currently have in Formatting) until we've done a little more work on the structure of the formatting page -- I suspect it will become abundantly clear to each of us then (of course, the 'clarity' will not be the same :!: )

Division of labour: If we can agree the approach and structure, we should probably agree who does what (while keeping the other updated and allowing challenges). Anything I do will heavily re-use existing material, but probably reworded in parts, so am happy to pick up anything -- but maybe I can do Pages, Hyperlinks and Media, while you do Formatting and Specialist tools? happy to switch around if you prefer.

(I assume we should create a new set of Pages rather than impact existing ones, so the 'old' content remains usable until we usher in the 'new'.)

(PPS Can we discuss Oxford commas... ? Just joking. I'll grit my teeth).

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 19 Nov 2018 14:37

OK, there is a lot of agreement there :D Sadly have not heard anything from David :(
Let me update the Downloads and Links and Member Web Sites to be more new user friendly and stand alone.
Let me update the Alternative Approach with what we have agreed and flesh out the headlines & hyperlinks plus tips.
I will post back here when done for your comments, and then we can divide and conquer the actual page restructuring.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 20 Nov 2018 17:31

I know you are busy with your Research Planner but when you have time I've updated the following pages:
Knowledge Base > How to Add Downloads and Links
Knowledge Base > Add a Downloadable File
Knowledge Base > Add a Link to a Service or Utility
Knowledge Base > Add a Member Web Site Link
Knowledge Base > Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Alternative Approach
In that last page the main changes are in:
Introduction 2nd paragraph.
Basic Concepts last bullet point.
Editing Existing Pages onwards has all bullet points updated with actual hyperlinks or FIXME hints to the desired content.
Let me know what you think, and then we can divide up the actual page restructuring.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 20 Nov 2018 17:48

Thanks, Mike -- will be tomorrow -- have to do a bit of work at least today on the other plugin I promised Valkrider

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 25 Nov 2018 14:09

Mike,

Happy with the changes to the Downloads and Link pages.

Ambivalent about the way the same subject is handled on Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Alternative Approach. The pointers to the Download and Link pages are much less prominent than the rest of the material because they're inline in the introduction. Could we perhaps perhaps pull
There are simple ways to add information of interest to FHUG members, to the Downloads and Links or Member Web Sites sections. If that is your objective, then use the Add Downloads and Links or Add a Member Web Site Link shortcut forms. After creating a page using those forms, you can customise it further by using the editing techniques below.
out into a section of a heading of its own so it appears in the table of contents and is more eye-catching? (I'm happy with the text).

How many Tips and Tricks do we think we're going to have? Hidden Draft Pages could sit easily under Create and Manage Pages... would other tips and tricks sit equally easily in one of the main sections?

I'm happy with the rest -- how do you propose to divide up the work. I'd suggest you do the Advanced Features, but I'm happy to have a go at anything else.

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 25 Nov 2018 18:54

Can you suggest a compact Title for the Add Downloads and Links or Add a Member Web Site Link section.
We struggled earlier to come up with one that we were both satisfied with, was not too long, and conveyed the concept.

Tips and Tricks could go two ways.
Yes, Hidden Draft Pages would fit under Create and Manage Pages.
Conversely, Shared Page Contents and Update Cross-references could move under Tips and Tricks.
There are other 'techniques' I've used to mimic buttons that involve characters with same foreground and background colour.
It is also possible to use a section headline with no text to bring the subsequent body text out a level.
It would be useful to have section where other such tips that I remember could sit comfortably.

Should each link be to an independent Page, or to a Section within a larger Page per main Section?
I guess one advantage of independent Pages is they could easily be rearranged into different sections if needed, and more easily updated one at a time.

Should Reference Material be a separate section or integrated with Advanced Features on the grounds that they will only be of interest to advanced users, as the earlier sections should stand on their own for basic users?
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 25 Nov 2018 19:36

Re compact title: Simple Ways to Add Information ?

Tips and tricks -- park it for now until we generate a list of what might go in there and then see if it warrants its own section?

Links -- I think to a section in a larger page, such that when somebody has found their way to that page, they can find other related material easily.

I would keep reference material separate -- much of it may well only be of interest to advanced users but there can be occasions when somebody else wants to look at 'the manual'.

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 25 Nov 2018 21:10

I've added a section for Easy Ways to Contribute :?:

I've created the following skeleton Pages and temporarily added a Page link to them in each synonymous main section:
Knowledge Base > Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Edit Existing Pages
Knowledge Base > Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Create And Manage Pages
Knowledge Base > Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Advanced Features
Eventually those temporary Page links will be removed, just leaving the proposed section headline links.
After you complete each new section, adjust the existing links to old sections to refer to the new sections.
Would you like to make a start with Edit Existing Pages ?
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by David2416 » 26 Nov 2018 10:24

tatewise wrote:Sadly have not heard anything from David :(
Sorry Mike, didn't have anything to contribute. I will have a look through the updated pages when I get some spare time.

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 26 Nov 2018 10:41

Mike -- I think we're a little at cross-purposes -- my fault for not being clear.

I was thinking that we would have for example a single "subject" Page on "Pages" with sections:
  • Edit and Save an Existing Page (linked from the section on Edit Existing Pages)
  • Page Hyperlinks (as least as far as they play a part in creating new pages)
      • ...Other page-related tasks... (linked from the section on Create and Manage Pages)
and then a single "subject" Page on Formatting with Character Styles, Page Text layout, Extra text styles...

Maybe a subject page on Media (including Downloads and Images), and one on Hyperlinks.

Whereas (if I'm reading what you've done correctly), you're thinking of a Page behind each section, with a mixture of topics selected by anticipated experience level of the audience?

It seems important to agree on this before me move on.

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 26 Nov 2018 12:16

Yes, we need to agree a Page and Section structure.
I thought that the hierachy we had agreed on the Knowledge Base > Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Alternative Approach page would be reflected in the underlying linked details Pages and Sections.
In other words, the lists of links we've agreed would be identical to the Table of Contents top Sections in the linked Pages.
Otherwise, I fear it will confuse newcomers, who if they dip into say Page Text Layout would expect that to lie between Character Styles above and Page Hyperlinks below.

I did NOT see Edit and Save a Page as part of the Create and Manage Pages section.
It is simply the process for editing existing pages to apply the features listed within that Edit Existing Pages section.

Perhaps we need to discuss the content of the links we've agreed in a bit more detail?
For each link in the sections we've agreed, the list on the right identifies the content details, i.e. for Edit Existing Pages:
Character Styles gives instructions for adding every style from 'bold' through to 'signs =>'.
Page Text Layout gives instructions for adding everything from 'paragraphs' through to 'code blocks'.
I had anticipated that Page Hyperlinks would only deal with links to existing entities, and flow into the subsequent topics for Media Images and Download Links and then the Media Manager.
Perhaps the problem is that Hyperlinks support a multitude of techniques, and we have different perspectives on what those are, and how the different types of Hyperlink should be presented to users.
All these topics just edit an existing page without altering the KB Page structure in any way.

Create and Manage Pages is for more ambitious tasks where pages are to be created, deleted, renamed, moved, or structured in novel ways, and yes they often involve Hyperlinks but applied to different tasks.

If necessary, may be you need to propose a Table of Contents for each underlying Page of detailed instructions.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 26 Nov 2018 12:43

Isn't Information Management wonderful :ugeek:

I was thinking that, as we have one structure on Contribute Your Knowledge ~ Alternative Approach we would have another structure below it (catering for different kinds of thinking).

Give me some time to come up with a (challengeable -- obviously) proposal (I'm busy transcribing outstanding tasks from GenQuiry into the new plugin, and Source templates into the Source Template plugin so that I can retire GenQuiry).

What format would you prefer -- a set of suggested pages or a response here? Suggested pages shortcut the next step perhaps...

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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by tatewise » 26 Nov 2018 13:32

I feel I need to understand what you mean by catering for different kinds of thinking.
That is too vague for me ~ I need something more concrete ~ it is just the way my mind works.

If we wish to present topics in different combinations, then small Pages are better than large Pages.
Then we can use various mechanisms to present those Page topic in differrent contexts.
If we have large Pages with lots of Sections then once a user has jumped to a Section it will only appear within the sequence presented in that large Page.
The alternative is lots of small Pages, and then link/share them among large Pages that combine them in differrent ways.

Can you start with some proposed Table of Contents headings here, using a BBCode code block to preserve indents.
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Re: Contribute Your Knowledge Improvements

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 26 Nov 2018 13:44

OK.

we have the "Alternative Approach" page that attempts to structure itself by 'the tasks people want to do/the stage they are at.

But we have a potential audience who might go "I want to understand about X" where X is formatting or pages or links or media or really complicated stuff.

So we need a different underlying structure from the top one.

I will generate something. -- give me a while.

I disagree about small versus large pages, if we provide 'stepping stones' between the underlying pages....

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