* On hold until 23 Oct 2023: Viewing and editing citations

For Wish List Requests that need more work before they can be progressed to the Wish List, because after 3 months, discussions have not arrived at a clear specification of the requirement such that one or more Wish List items can be raised. Items On Hold that are not subsequently refined to a state suitable for the Wish List within a year by the OP or other interested parties will be closed. If the OP feels unable to progress the request, they should ask for volunteers among other interested users to assist.
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rcpettit
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On hold until 23 Oct 2023: Viewing and editing citations

Post by rcpettit »

I would like to see FH display citations in the Source Tab like is done in Rootsmagic 8, and Familytreemaker 2017. Have a split screen and when you select a source, any citations for that source will display in the other side of the display. Then have to ability to merge duplicates and edit citations. Being a lumper, this would make life easier.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by tatewise »

I imagine what you are really asking for is a Source Citation Window rather than modify the Records Window Sources tab.
i.e. Similar to the Media Window or Map Window that are separate from the Records Window Media and Places tabs and have added features.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by davidf »

When I first read this I wondered if it could be achieved through a query, but it's not easily done due to the "many to many" relationship of the citation to both facts and sources where the manys are variable. A source can be linked to many facts and facts can be linked to many sources - and "the citation" is the detail of the link. Which for lumpers is rather useful!

A "simple" citation record window might be either of limited functionality or alternatively very difficult to implement because in GEDCOM "citations" do not exist as "GEDCOM records"?

Is this a place for some form of plug in that can crawl a GEDCOM? In RdB terms you want a sort of denormalised table of all facts and all sources - sorted initially by source.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by tatewise »

There is the long-established Where Used Record Links plugin that with one or many selected Source records lists all the Citations with useful indicators for identifying duplicates.
See the Help page Where Used Record Links that explains the details provide for Citations.

There are other plugins and some queries that offer Source Citation details.

In FH v7.0 there is also the View > Citations to Source Record... command.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by davidf »

That does what I would want - but I'm not the original poster!

Worth noting that in the plug in results window clicking on the entry in the "Field Where Used Column" takes you to the Individual property dialog with the relevant fact highlighted - which is neat and unexpected.

It includes the "Entry Date" from the citation; pity it does not include the "other" "citation fields" (in 6.2.7: Assessment, Where Used within Source, Text from Source, Note)
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by tatewise »

David, I wonder if you have studied the Help page Where Used Record Links that explains the things you thought were neat and unexpected.

Also, it does display the "other" "citation fields" such as Assessment, Where within Source, Text From Source, Citation Note, and in FH v7 the first few Citation Metafields, but any column may be omitted to save space if all fields in that column are blank.
That is particularly helpful for 'splitters' where those fields are rarely used.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by davidf »

tatewise wrote: 22 Sep 2021 18:18 Also, it does display the "other" "citation fields" such as Assessment, Where within Source, Text From Source, Citation Note, and in FH v7 the first few Citation Metafields, but any column may be omitted to save space if all fields in that column are blank.
So it does! But I had to resize columns to see these additional columns (off to the right) - which is a right pain.
Should there be a horizontal scroll line in such "result queries" - or am I not seeing it due to an "excess of wine"?

I was referring to clicking to reach a specific fact as "neat and unexpected" because in previous discussions about being able to link in to FH at a specific fact from an external program (e.g. hyperlink "linkto://FH ProjectPath/FH ProjectName/Record ID#Fact"), I was persuaded that this would not be possible because facts (unlike records) do not have explicit IDs and cannot therefore be directly referenced. This plug-in which I had not tried in earnest before seems to be able to directly link to a specific fact (albeit from within FH). I would really like to be able to right click on a fact and lift a form of hyperlink that I could then paste into another program (such as ZIM) that I use for research management/planning so that clicking on that link would take me directly to that fact in FH.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by tatewise »

David, there certainly should be a horizontal scroll bar and a vertical scroll bar whenever necessary.
That is a standard feature of all Result Sets whether produced by a Query or a Plugin. It must be the wine effect!

There is absolutely no way to link to anything inside FH using a URL from another application, not even to open records.
I have no idea where you might have got hold of that idea.
It is possible to invoke FH with a command line that identifies a record to open, but that does NOT involve a URL.

This discussion is straying away from the OP request and maybe needs another thread...
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

As the OP has not returned to this topic I wonder if the need has been satisfied by
tatewise wrote: 22 Sep 2021 14:21 There is the long-established Where Used Record Links plugin that with one or many selected Source records lists all the Citations with useful indicators for identifying duplicates.
See the Help page Where Used Record Links that explains the details provide for Citations.

There are other plugins and some queries that offer Source Citation details.

In FH v7.0 there is also the View > Citations to Source Record... command.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by rcpettit »

Sorry been away for a while. I do currently use the Citations to Source Record menu command, though it seems like it should be in the drop down menu for the source or it's own icon in menu bar. Still being a lumper, I still prefer a one to many instead of the many to many method so I don't have to go to each citation to make changes instead of the master citation and have to others automatically update. I understand this is a restriction on the gedcom file, but couldn't FH instead add their own methods to the master gedcom and allow you to export a standard gedcom if needed. Maybe when gedcom 7 gets incorporated this problem will be fixed as it does support shared citations.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by tatewise »

If you are so keen on having just one entity to make changes why are you clinging to being a 'lumper' instead of becoming a 'splitter' where one of the major attractions is having a single entity to hold all the source details?
Then FH does not need to implement anything and you have achieved your objective of a shared citation.

There are tools that help in converting 'lumped' source citations to 'split' source citations.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by rcpettit »

Here's my example. I have a master source for say 1940 U.S. Census. I create a citation for the census event for say John Doe. I then share this event with several family members. Here I can just edit one citation and it effects everyone using that shared event. Now I create an event for the occupation from that source and I paste the citation from the census event. If I later find a transcription error, I now have to edit every individual non census events that share that citation one at a time. This is especially true if the family contains adult children living with parents who each have a occupation. Other software such as Family Tree Maker , Rootsmagic and gramps allow for you to share the one citatation multiple times and then you only have to edit just the one citatation and have all the shared citations update at the same time. Being a splitter puts me in the same boat having to edit multiple citatations. Besides I hate having tons of census sources broken down by State, County, City and Person. I like just having a 1940 U.S. Census source and having the citations broken down by State and person.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by tatewise »

rcpettit wrote: 25 Sep 2022 20:14 If I later find a transcription error, I now have to edit every individual non census events that share that citation one at a time.
Presumably, you also have to update the census events that share that citation too!
Why not use the same Copy & Paste Citation from one master citation to all the others?
You just have to use the red X to delete the existing citation before pasting the copy.
i.e. You don't need to edit every individual citation but just delete it and paste the new copy.
rcpettit wrote: 25 Sep 2022 20:14 Being a splitter puts me in the same boat having to edit multiple citations. Besides I hate having tons of census sources broken down by State, County, City and Person. I like just having a 1940 U.S. Census source and having the citations broken down by State and person.
You mentioned "census sources broken down by State, County, City and Person" and perhaps that is a misunderstanding.
A splitter usually breaks the census down by State, County, City and Household and shares that source with all the derived census and non census facts for each member of the household.

If you are a splitter you do NOT have to edit multiple citations. Each citation holds no details except the link to the Source.
Each member of a household has census and non census facts that share the same Source record, just like a shared citation.
So to correct a transcription error, you just edit the one Source record Text From Source field. No citations are changed.

IMO there are fewer splitter census sources broken down by household than lumper duplicated citations per fact.
If we assume there are typically 4 people per household and each one has a census and non census fact, then for a lumper that needs 8 duplicate copies of the same citation data. Whereas, for a splitter, it needs just one Source record for the household.
If FH supported shared citations then there would be the same number as splitter Source records.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by AdrianBruce »

rcpettit wrote: 25 Sep 2022 20:14... If I later find a transcription error, I now have to edit every individual non census events that share that citation one at a time. ...
Ironically perhaps, that's my argument for being a source-splitter. If there's a transcription error in the text-from-source, and that text-from-source is in the Source Record, I only have to update it there once.
rcpettit wrote: 25 Sep 2022 20:14... Other software such as Family Tree Maker , Rootsmagic and gramps allow for you to share the one citation multiple times and then you only have to edit just the one citation and have all the shared citations update at the same time. ...
Unfortunately, the free version of Rootsmagic doesn't have this ability to "share" citations, which is why I worry that I don't have a decent insight into "sharing" citations.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by Mark1834 »

In practice, it works in a similar way to the FH copy/paste citation, with the difference that in FH and RM7 the new citation is always a new instance that has its own independent existence, but in RM8 it can be either a new instance or linked to the original.

At least in terms of database design, the implementation in RM8 is fairly straightforward. RM data are stored in an SQLite relational database, so all it needs is an additional table linking unique citations (the primary key) to fact citations. FH would probably have to work a bit harder to implement the concept, but I'm sure it would be possible.

I'm a splitter in FH, but that is only because its design handles splitting much better than lumping. My preference (influenced by nearly four decades of using relational databases for data storage in my old day job!) is to be a lumper, as I find that a much more elegant solution when implemented correctly.

(ducks for cover from the onslaught of die-hard FH splitters.... :) )
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by AdrianBruce »

Mark1834 wrote: 25 Sep 2022 22:18 In practice, it works in a similar way to the FH copy/paste citation, with the difference that in FH and RM7 the new citation is always a new instance that has its own independent existence, but in RM8 it can be either a new instance or linked to the original. ...
(My emphasis). Ah - thanks, I suspect that explains a lot of my confusion. I had formed the impression that sharing was a feature back in RM7. Well, taking your literal text, so it was, but the "sharing" was actually just copying. Which isn't "sharing" in my book, as that term conveys an ongoing linkage in my head.
Mark1834 wrote: 25 Sep 2022 22:18 ... I'm a splitter in FH, but that is only because its design handles splitting much better than lumping. My preference (influenced by nearly four decades of using relational databases for data storage in my old day job!) is to be a lumper, as I find that a much more elegant solution when implemented correctly. ...
If I cast off the GEDCOM data model in my head, then the whole source thing is a "tree" - Sources can be within Sources which can be within Sources which ... And bits of Citation could come from each of those levels. (Wasn't this an "Elephant's Ear" in "real" Data Modelling?) Splitters and Lumpers could all use the full stack of source entities, removing the distinction, apart from how many levels you want to use.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by rcpettit »

I think the difference between Splitters and Lumpers came from genealogy being done on paper before computers took over. Splitting seams to be the best fit for paper genealogy and lumping for computers. As to how FH handles citations, it comes down to FH using a text files vs database which imposes a lot of restrictions. Using a text files does makes for simpler programming. Maybe an alternative is to use a XML or gedcom 7 format. I think I've used just about every genealogy program that is or was out there, my wife would kill me if she ever found out how much money I've spent on them, :) . I switched to FH when 7 came out cause it let me to do things that the other software couldn't do. I had high hopes for RM8 but it fell way short.

If i'm going to stay with FH, I guess I need to switch to being a splitter until FH gets around to allowing for both Lumpers and Splitters when it comes to citations.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by KFN »

In my opinion GEDCOM, be it v5.5.1 or v7, is mostly a “lumping” recording system.

The Source_Record contains all of the elements that define a book, website, document and the like, it’s major datapoints are Author, Publisher, Title.

The Source_Citation contains the elements that define the exact location of the data used to cite the fact. Mostly just the location of the data reflected in the Page tag, which as defined in GEDCOM to be:
Specific location with in the information referenced.
For a published work, this could include the volume of a multi-volume work and the page number(s).
For a periodical, it could include volume, issue, and page numbers.
For a newspaper, it could include a column number and page number.
For an unpublished source or microfilmed works, this could be a film or sheet number, page number, frame number, etc.
A census record might have an enumerating district, page number, line number, dwelling number, and family number.
The data in this field should be in the form of a label and value pair, such as Label1: value, Label2: value, with each pair being separated by a comma. For example, Film: 1234567, Frame: 344, Line: 28.
Because the GEDCOM structure has not normalized many of its elements, (Place, Citation, Events, Citations) a shared relationship within GEDCOM is not complete.

Therefore, if an Event can be recorded to multiple people and are support by the same citation location (i. e. page and line) GEDCOM would require multiple entries. This of course does not prevent software from providing a normalized view of a Source_Citation, but once turned into a GEDCOM this sharing would be lost.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by tatewise »

KFN wrote: 26 Sep 2022 00:06 In my opinion GEDCOM, be it v5.5.1 or v7, is mostly a “lumping” recording system.

: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Therefore, if an Event can be recorded to multiple people and are supported by the same citation location (i. e. page and line) GEDCOM would require multiple entries. This of course does not prevent software from providing a normalized view of a Source_Citation, but once turned into a GEDCOM this sharing would be lost.
IMO those two assertions seem to contradict each other.

The specific location information examples you give omit the most popular sources like BMD Certificates and church records.
The location information can be recorded entirely in the Source_Record for one BMD Certificate or one Census Household or one published article, and then the Source_Citation is empty apart from the link to the Source_Record.
That is a "splitter" recording system.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by Croftian »

rcpettit wrote: 25 Sep 2022 22:50 If i'm going to stay with FH, I guess I need to switch to being a splitter until FH gets around to allowing for both Lumpers and Splitters when it comes to citations.
Mark1834 wrote: 25 Sep 2022 22:18 I'm a splitter in FH, but that is only because its design handles splitting much better than lumping. My preference (influenced by nearly four decades of using relational databases for data storage in my old day job!) is to be a lumper, as I find that a much more elegant solution when implemented correctly.

(ducks for cover from the onslaught of die-hard FH splitters.... )
I am a splitter for Census sources, and a lumper for all BMD burial and baptism events, ie for main family lines I have a "BMD-family name" source into which all the above go. At the moment I have four such sources. Other sources such as certificates I did have as splitters, but I'm working towards "lumping" them as it seems to work for me ;) ;) ,although I'll keep Census as splitters.
The only problem I've found on "lumped" is sometime having to update a few citations individually when new info comes to light !!
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by davidf »

rcpettit wrote: 25 Sep 2022 22:50 I think the difference between Splitters and Lumpers came from genealogy being done on paper before computers took over. Splitting seams to be the best fit for paper genealogy and lumping for computers.
Strange I had always thought the reverse!

Pre computers/internet when you looked something up and were asked where did you find it, you might say
  • a baptism - in the Beaumont Parish Baptismal & Burial Register for 18xx-18yy, in the store-room at Carlisle Record office under ref ... [source] and it was Entry No. xyz on page pqr [citation]
  • a census - in the 1871 E&W Census Ref: RG10; Piece: 5230; at the National Archives [source - presumably "the TNA box"] and it was Folio: 47; Page: 12 [citation - presumably the manilla folder in the box and specific sheet]
In both cases the source is the "thing you requested" and the citation is "where within the thing you found the information".

With internet availability of sources that evolves slightly for "lumpers" where the "source" is the "collection" - the "thing" you accessed and the citation is "where within the collection":
  • a baptism - in the FMP Cumberland Baptisms Collection [source] and it was Image x of y [citation]
  • a census - in the FMP 1871 England and Wales Census [source] and it was "RG10; Piece: 5230; Folio: 47; Page: 12" [citation]
People can quibble about my slightly idiosyncratic forms of specific citation; the baptism one [image number] is specific to the collection, but the facts supported by that citation can enable you to try to find the equivalent on say Family Search, whilst the census one is "census" rather than "collection" specific - but again the facts supported can enable you to get back to the same page either physically at TNA or on say Ancestry.

When I am online I do not feel that I am looking at an image in isolation, it is part of a bigger source. Perhaps that is because I come to this from pre-internet Academic Research, where Book details (Full Title, Author, edition, date, publisher and where published etc.) were given once (in "list of References" [i.e. sources] and your citations where usually "in text" by means of a key (usually "Author" - but "Author,date" if the author was prolific) to the source and a page number so you citation might be "Porter 1984, p124".

As a lumper I feel that that is adequate normalisation. To split (i.e. denormalise) and to duplicate the book (or census etc.) details for every citation just feels wrong.

Besides I like to hold "notes about sources" ("Beaumont Parish register is available at Carlisle on Microfilm ref XYZ, but it has poor images and if you ask they will get the original out of the strong room", "FMP (and others?) has a few missing schedules for the 1871 Census; scroll down from any transcript page to see details") - and I don't want to duplicate them!
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by Mark1834 »

The ideal system is where each distinct data item is recorded once, and only once. So to take David’s example:
  • There is one record of a collection as a whole
  • Each distinct citation from that collection (e.g. an individual baptism) is recorded once only.
  • Each distinct use of that citation (e.g. reliable primary data for baptism, less reliable secondary information for date of birth if given) has its own unique record.
Splitter or lumper is then driven largely by the capabilities of the storage system used and how far you are prepared to deviate from that ideal.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by KFN »

Tatewise said:
The specific location information examples you give omit the most popular sources like BMD Certificates and church records.
In the case of church records, for Norwegian churches, these are all contained in books with information for specific individuals on pages and lines just like a census. I suspect most churches are run this way. I admit that in some locations individual certificates are used as well other single page sources do occur and these would not use much if anything of the Source_Citation in GEDCOM!

And said:
The location information can be recorded entirely in the Source_Record for one BMD Certificate or one Census Household or one published article, and then the Source_Citation is empty apart from the link to the Source_Record.
That is a "splitter" recording system.
Where in GEDCOM v5.5.1 is a definition that states the WHERE_WITHIN_SOURCE can be written in the Source_Record for an article or a census? The examples I made are directly from the specification. A single birth or death certificate when available outside of a microfiche or other “collection” source would have little to place in a Source_Citation, so yes some artifacts will not have pages when found outside of a collection, but increasingly these individual documents are becoming harder to obtain in our digitized world!
Last edited by KFN on 26 Sep 2022 13:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by AdrianBruce »

rcpettit wrote: 25 Sep 2022 22:50 I think the difference between Splitters and Lumpers came from genealogy being done on paper before computers took over. ...
For what it's worth (and it may not be worth that much!) I would consider that paper based genealogy is neither splitting nor lumping - if by paper based genealogy you mean a document with sources cited solely by footnotes or end-notes.

That's a big "if" however, since if you introduce bibliographies, then it becomes possible to envisage the level of detail at the bibliography level being different from the level at the foot / end-note level e.g. "1851 for England & Wales" vs. "schedule for Fred Bloggs & family, 1 Beam St, Nantwich, 1851 for England & Wales, TNA HO107/2264 folio 62 page 17 schedule 60" or some such variation. That's sort of like splitting or lumping though I'm not totally convinced it's quite the same thing.

This is somewhat reminiscent of the debates over Elizabeth Shown Mills' citation templates - despite occasional attempts to co-opt her ideas for computer systems, her formats are aimed at the final "paper" based report and should apply for any app, used in any fashion.
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Re: Viewing and editing citations

Post by AdrianBruce »

davidf wrote: 26 Sep 2022 10:59...
In both [pre-online] cases the source is the "thing you requested" and the citation is "where within the thing you found the information".

With internet availability of sources that evolves slightly for "lumpers" where the "source" is the "collection" - the "thing" you accessed and the citation is "where within the collection":
...
Your first definition is an eminently sensible way of trying to decide "Which is the source? The entry, the chapter, the box, the collection...?" The second is a decent way of carrying it forward, although the various providers seem a touch inconsistent in their naming of what a "collection" is. Collection? Dataset? etc. (As an aside, it seems to me that few people seem to map their definition of what level a source should be recorded at, to something in the real world, like you did there. Dozens of FH users will now explain how they do... :( ).
davidf wrote: 26 Sep 2022 10:59...
Besides I like to hold "notes about sources" ("Beaumont Parish register is available at Carlisle on Microfilm ref XYZ, but it has poor images and if you ask they will get the original out of the strong room", "FMP (and others?) has a few missing schedules for the 1871 Census; scroll down from any transcript page to see details") - and I don't want to duplicate them!
I keep those myself, unduplicated, as separate Note Records linked to my (Split) Source Records.
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