* TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Writing and using plugins for Version 5 and above.
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 21 Jun 2022 15:41

It is not really for me to say whether your TNG page is unsatisfactory. I have not purchased TNG and so do not use it.
The TNG options in my plugin are entirely based on feedback from TNG users.
Whether the changes you propose are satisfactory is more a matter for other TNG users, perhaps discussed via a TNG forum.
If there is general acceptance and Darrin has not implemented a better option then I would consider altering the plugin.

This is my perspective...

In GEDCOM, there are many links between records using Record Id that all default to the current Project/Tree.
None of them needs a TNG Tree Name to get them to work correctly.
So why do your _SHAR, ASSO, etc, links need a Tree Name? Why does TNG not default to the current Tree?

Many products support the 2 _SHAR shared/witnessed fact GEDCOM extension.
They all seem to display them much like FH as shared facts among the witness person's primary facts.
The one exception seems to be TNG.
BTW: GEDCOM 7.0.1 formally supports that GEDCOM extension but replaces the 2 _SHAR tag with the 2 ASSO tag that still also has its 1 ASSO function.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 21 Jun 2022 20:23

I will try the TNG forum as you suggest.

I think that there may be some confusion between the way that a genealogy program like FH functions - by realtime processing on a PC with data sets stored in gedcoms or some other database, and TNG where the only active realtime process is occasionally importing a gedcom and converting it into a set of web pages and SQL tables stored on a server. At all other times it is the PHP interpreter on the server that responds to user input and manipulates the pages and tables.

It is simply a fact that all person pages in a TNG installation have a URL (which TNG creates as part of its import process) containing the tree name. I assume that this is to ensure that each page has a unique URL because a TNG installation is simply part of a website and can contain several trees each with their own set of IDs.

Since Darrin has not provided a mechanism to deal properly with SHAR tags, it seemed to me that the next best thing is to write PHP code into a gedcom to provide the appropriate hyperlinks. So I have set your plug-in to put the witness names into a fact note:
e.g. 3 CONT Witness Role: Beneficiary [I7] Alice HULBERT
and then I run the output gedcom from the plug-in through a small program that converts the gedcom line into a hyperlink:
3 CONT Witness Role: Beneficiary <a href=getperson.php?personID=I7&amp;tree=tree1> Alice HULBERT</a>

This is where it is essential to know the destination tree name. The TNG import process simply copies the gedcom line into the appropriate webpage and then if a viewer of the website clicks on the hyperlink the PHP interpreter takes the appropriate action.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 21 Jun 2022 21:13

Ah! That is much clearer.
So to make your 'amendment' to the GEDCOM more accessible to others, would you consider either providing your 'small program' or writing a small FH plugin that does the same conversion?
That would provide a workaround accessible to everyone until Darrin provides a better solution.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 22 Jun 2022 08:06

Mike:
I will certainly send you my program by email, hoping that you can easily translate it out of Basic into Lua. At 85, I do not feel up to learning a new programming language - I feel the same way about the the new Source system in FH7.

I should explain that the program also has another function. Your plug-in seems to create a 1 EVEN tag for each Witness containing full details of each witnessed event. My program removes these and replaces them with ASSO tags to provide a hyperlink back to the Principal. I did this partly to provide hyperlinks each way beteen Principal and Witnesses but also to slim down the witness's web page when displayed on TNG.

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 22 Jun 2022 08:13

Cannot find a usable email address so I will try to attach it to this post.

No good - says .bas is invalid file type

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 22 Jun 2022 08:19

You may be able to work from the attached file.
If not please send me an actual email address that I can use
Attachments
Logic of EditGedcom process.txt
(1.95 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 22 Jun 2022 10:42

To Email me you can use the Contact: option in my Profile on the right of my postings.
However, that does not allow attachments of files.

Presumably, you run your program as a compiled executable (.exe) file.
You can right-click that .exe and choose Send to > Compressed (zipped) folder to create a .zip file.
That .zip file can be attached to your forum posting via the ATTACHMENTS tab below.
Then anyone can run your program on the exported GEDCOM file.

You can perform exactly the same process on your .bas file too and attach that .zip file.
However, I suspect most of us will not be able to use the .bas file as we won't have MS Basic installed.

I assume it has prompts to select the GEDCOM file and to request the TNG Tree Name.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 23 Jun 2022 09:00

I have included in the zip file attached an "Instructions for use" file.
Anyone who needs more information is welcome to contact me.
Attachments
EditGedcom_TNG.zip
(427.36 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 23 Jun 2022 16:08

Thank you for that.
I have run the program on my test project exported for TNG with the following results.

A typical fact witness link to Rec Id [I3] like this:
3 CONT Witness Role: Parent [I3] Susan Isabel DOWLING
converted to the following as expected:
3 CONT Witness Role: Parent <a href=getperson.php?personID=I3&amp;tree=2> Susan Isabel DOWLING</a>

But a 'Name Only' fact witness like this:
3 CONT Witness Role: Parent Name: John Smith
converted to the following that is invalid GEDCOM with no leading level digit or tag:
<a href=getperson.php?personID=&amp;tree=2>3 CONT Witness Role: Parent Name: John Smith</a>


The 1 EVEN 2 TYPE Ω ... Role style of custom events should convert to 1 ASSO @I1@ style of tags.
I found one chunk of GEDCOM with three similar 1 EVEN 2 TYPE Ω ... Role events:

Code: Select all

1 RFN 1234
1 REFN C1
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Ω Residence Role
2 DATE FROM MAY 1957 TO 1965
2 PLAC Clifton Wood, Bristol, England
2 ADDR 2 Clifton Wood, Bristol
2 NOTE Large 5 bedroom terraced house, opposite the docks, with a good view over the warehouses
3 CONT Witness Role:	Principal	[I1]	Anthony Edward MUNRO%9 OBE
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I1]	Anthony Edward MUNRO%9 OBE
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I3]	Susan Isabel DOWLING
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I8]	Judy Susan MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I6]	Ian Stephen MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I7]	Sally Theresa MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I92]	Nigel MUNRO
2 SOUR @S41@
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Ω Birth Informed Role
2 DATE 20 JAN 1953
2 PLAC Lewisham, London, England
2 NOTE Witness Role:	Principal	[I1]	Anthony Edward MUNRO%9 OBE
3 CONT Witness Role:	Child	[I6]	Ian Stephen MUNRO
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Ω Residence Role
2 DATE FROM 1990
2 PLAC Farmborough, Somerset, England
2 ADDR Little House, The Batch
2 SOUR @S13@
3 PAGE line 1
3 DATA
4 TEXT xxx
2 NOTE Witness Role:	Principal	[I6]	Ian Stephen MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I6]	Ian Stephen MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I25]	Charlotte CARRINGTON
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I26]	Christopher Ian MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I49]	Janet Elizabeth MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Resident	[I50]	Paula Charlotte MUNRO
1 CHAN
2 DATE 27 APR 2021
3 TIME 10:47:31
Those 40 lines are converted to the following where the first and last few lines are the same so it is the matching code.
However, it does not look right to me because lots of information is missing.
I think it's correctly ignoring the Witness Role: Principal lines and only converting the first of the other lines.

Code: Select all

1 RFN 1234
1 REFN C1
1 ASSO @I1@
2 RELA Resident in  Residence  FROM MAY 1957 TO 1965
1 ASSO @I1@
2 RELA Child in  Birth Informed  20 JAN 1953
1 ASSO @I6@
2 RELA Resident in  Residence  FROM 1990
1 CHAN
2 DATE 27 APR 2021
3 TIME 10:47:31
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 23 Jun 2022 16:50

Thank you Mike - I will look into these problems.

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 23 Jun 2022 21:21

I have, I hope, corrected the handling of a name-only witness and will attach the revised program.

I am not sure what the problem is with the 1 Even issues. My program was written on the assumption that all "1 Even 2 Type - - Role" sections are added by the Export Gedcom plugin as copies of an event which will form part of the Principal's webpage, so I replace them with a hyperlink to allow an interested viewer to see all the details of the original event
Attachments
EditGedcom_TNG.zip
(427.44 KiB) Downloaded 10 times

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 24 Jun 2022 09:42

Yes, that corrects the 'Name Only' fact witness case by leaving it unconverted. :D

I realise the 1 ASSO conversion actually only links to the fact Principal and disregards the fact witnesses

Now that I understand the strategy I have some suggestions.

In the 1 EVEN 2 TYPE Ω ... Role facts why do you prefer the 1 ASSO link rather than retain the custom event and convert each Witness Role line the same as the Principal Fact witnesses?
e.g.

Code: Select all

1 EVEN
2 TYPE Ω Birth Informed Role
2 DATE 20 JAN 1953
2 PLAC Lewisham, London, England
2 NOTE Witness Role:	Principal	[I1]	Anthony Edward MUNRO
3 CONT Witness Role:	Child	[I6]	Ian Stephen MUNRO
converts to

Code: Select all

1 EVEN
2 TYPE Ω Birth Informed Role
2 DATE 20 JAN 1953
2 PLAC Lewisham, London, England
2 NOTE Witness Role:	Principal	<a href=getperson.php?personID=I1&amp;tree=2> Anthony Edward MUNRO</a>
3 CONT Witness Role:	Child	<a href=getperson.php?personID=I6&amp;tree=2> Ian Stephen MUNRO</a>
In FH V7 rich text Notes it is possible to link to any record of any type.
Would it be feasible to use the above technique to make such links active in TNG?
It seems that <a href=getperson.php?personID=I321&amp;tree=2> Person-Name</a> would work for Individuals.
Are there similar hyperlinks for other record types: Family, Source, Media, etc?
In other words would these work:
<a href=familygroup.php?familyID=F781&amp;tree=2> Family-Couple</a> for Family records?
<a href=showsource.php?sourceID=S321&amp;tree=2> Source-Name</a> for Source records?
<a href=showrepo.php?repoID=R9&amp;tree=2> Repository-Name</a> for Repository records?
<a href=showmedia.php?mediaID=O9&amp;tree=2> Media-Name</a> for Media records (not sure about mediaID= value)?
What are the equivalent codes for all the other record types: Note records, etc?

I'm thinking that if the Export Gedcom File plugin was updated to offer the above feature would my suggestions be more comprehensive and more widely acceptable?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 24 Jun 2022 13:39

"In the 1 EVEN 2 TYPE Ω ... Role facts why do you prefer the 1 ASSO link " - I cannot work out how to do quoting on this board.
I think that I unconsciously wanted to copy the efficient and simple use of space in the FH property box, where a witness role has a single line in the Facts tab but can be expanded in various ways.
There is aso the issue of maximising the amount of information on a webpage in TNG before having to scroll down (or not realising that one can scroll); here again 1 or 2 lines per fact is an efficient use of space and allows a user to click for more information IF interested in that particular event.
For similar reasons I started by putting the text of wills and similar events in the Note field in FH but now use the Source Citation, which can be read at the foot of a TNG webpage. So my website is a hotchpotch of different layouts.

"I realise the 1 ASSO conversion actually only links to the fact Principal and disregards the fact witnesses"
I think of it as providing a link to the webpage containing all the information about the event including all the other witnesses.

I will do some further research into your question about other record types.

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 24 Jun 2022 14:14

These are URLs for some types of page in TNG:

Family Group https://-/genealogy/familygroup.php?familyID=F2&tree=tree1

Family Chart https://-/genealogy/familychart.php?familyID=F440&tree=tree1

Repository https://-/genealogy/showrepo.php?repoID=R26&tree=tree1

Source https://-/genealogy/showsource.php?sourceID=S51&tree=tree1

Photo etc https:///genealogy/showmedia.php?mediaID=1

Place (map) https://-/genealogy/placesearch.php?psearch=Faringdon%2C+Berkshire

I do not use Cematories, Headstones, Albums or other facilities so will have to investigate further

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 24 Jun 2022 14:21

There are two ways to perform quoting here.
In the other person's posting click the double quotes ‘‘ to the right of the top right toolbar.
That includes the person's name and the date of posting.
Alternatively, in your reply, click the double quotes ‘‘ after U in the toolbar to get quote BBCodes.

Thinking about it, the only reason the Export Gedcom File plugin includes all Fact Witness Roles in 1 EVEN 2 TYPE Ω ... Role facts is that it is difficult to find them all without any hyperlinks. So only the Principal needs a hyperlink in TNG and the others can be disregarded. That way the fact & note only need two lines. Would that be better?

Thank you for confirming the hyperlink formats for record types.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 24 Jun 2022 16:56

I find it difficult to answer your question about 1 Even facts because I am not sure why the plug-in creates them.
One of the attractions for me in the ASSO Rela format is that it gives the role of the witness and date of the event as well as the name of and link to the Principal - and all that on one line in TNG.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 24 Jun 2022 18:07

The plugin creates them because that is the option you chose.
It is trying to recreate the Fact Witness similar to the FH Facts tab entry for a Fact Witness.
i.e. It is similar to the Principal Fact but from the Fact Witness perspective.
I would prefer that TNG worked like FH and other products that support the _SHAR tag.
Everything else is a workaround.
The 1 ASSO solution loses details like the Place and any Notes and maybe Sources.

It would be good to hear from other TNG users to get a wider perspective.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 24 Jun 2022 20:16

We are comparing looking at the property box of a witness in FH which tells you nothing until you click the Facts tab and then only that he/she was a witness in some type of event - until you click on that line in the property box and then get some more details and you can then click on the Source citation to get some more etc
with
looking at the witness's page in TNG which contains a line telling you immediately that he was a witness and the type of event and his/her role in it and the name of the Principal and you can then do one click and see the full details about the event on the Principal's page.

I did put a post in the TNG Community Forum giving a link to my site and asking for feedback - so far 51 people have looked at the post but none have replied.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 24 Jun 2022 21:43

Sorry, but that is not a fair comparison.
The only reasonable comparison is between the FH Facts tab and TNG Personal Information tab.

Looking at the Property Box Main tab of a Principal in FH also tells you nothing about the facts with fact witnesses.
It is not until the Facts tab is viewed that the facts with Fact Witness can be identified by the 3 blue ball icon in More column.

In the FH Facts tab, Fact Witnesses are clearly identified by the blue arrow on their left.
The Fact column description usually gives their Role or what they Witnessed as well as the Date and optionally the Place.
Exactly what is described depends on how the Fact Witness definition is customized.

In both cases of Principal and Fact Witness, a double-click lists all the Witnesses with their Roles and the Principal.
That is what the 1 EVEN 2 TYPE Ω ... Role facts are trying to recreate when _SHAR is not well supported.

In TNG, the Principal fact list of Witnesses cannot be contracted, so uses extra lines that you understandably don't like for the Fact Witness hyperlinks.
So for Fact Witness facts I propose a 2-line solution, where the 1st line names the Principal Fact but suffixed with 'Role' and provides the Date and Place plus any Citations, while the 2nd line is a hyperlink to the Principal person.
It is the Ω and the word Role and the hyperlink to Witness Role: Principal that clearly identifies it as a Fact Witness fact.
Also, that Fact Witness fact is listed in its correct chronological position amongst the other facts.

The TNG 1 ASSO solution does not currently include the Place or the Citations and is not in chronological order.
I am not convinced that somebody viewing the TNG Personal Information tab will recognise the Association as a Fact Witness. You know it is, but will they?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 25 Jun 2022 15:07

I think that your 2-line proposal would be a considerable improvement.

But I am still attached to the ASSO Rela solution because I think that an ASSOCIATION between two persons is more understandable to the general public than anything that involves genealogical jargon like Witness, Fact and Event. To most people Witness means someone who gives testimony in a court of justice or possibly someone who is present when a document is signed or a crime is committed.

I am not bothered by the omission of Place or other details because they can all be found together by clicking to the Principal's page. Ideally, I would like to have the words "Witness Role" removed from the list of witnesses in the Principal's webpage.

I think that TNG has been so successful because it does one job extremely well - to display the results of genealogical research in a way that everyone who is not a genealogist or computer programmer can view and understand.

The Guild of One Name Studies currently host 375 members' websites of which 275 use TNG.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 24622
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise » 25 Jun 2022 16:55

You have a valid point regarding the word 'Witness'. It is coined by FH but does confuse users.
Most other products use the term 'Shared Fact' that is consistent with the _SHAR tag.
Let me think about an alternative.

However, did you know that in the Export Gedcom File plugin you can customise the Witness Role: label?
On the Labels Set A tab, on the right you can choose to eliminate the label entirely just as you wish.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 136
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford » 25 Jun 2022 17:21

Thank you.
I had noticed the Labels tabs but not looked at them.

Post Reply