* TMG Fact Type import issues

Importing from another genealogy program? This is the place to ask. Questions about Exporting should go in the Exporting sub-forum of the General Usage forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by tatewise »

There have been a number of TMG Fact Type direct import issues posted against FH v7.0 that I've been investigating:
Born and Died in Main tab. (19672) ~ BMD and all other standard facts not imported by FH.
Fact Type missing from FH after Conversion from TMG (19559)
Give Witness.. then Migrate Census. Importing from TMG (19551) ~ Census**** facts don't merge to standard Census facts.

In FH v6.2 the TMG direct import of Fact Types faithfully uses the TMG Tag Type List GEDCOM tag definition.
If the GEDCOM tag is BIRT, DEAT, CENS, etc, then it imports facts with those standard GEDCOM tags.
It only imports the facts as custom facts if the GEDCOM tag is EVEN.
But that did not cope with foreign languages because the TMG Tag Type List Label was ignored.

In FH v7.0 the TMG direct import of Fact Types has changed significantly.
It now creates a local Project TMG (project) Fact Set to hold the imported fact type definitions.
If those definitions use standard GEDCOM tags then the matching Standard Fact Set tags are <eclipsed>.
That allows the local Project TMG (project) Fact Set to hold custom definitions such as foreign language versions.

If the TMG SAMPLE_UK__ project is imported then the above process works OK and the Standard facts are <eclipsed> by the TMG facts that can be given foreign language Labels, etc, that just apply to the Project.
All the FH features associated with key standard facts such as Birth, Baptism, Marriage, Census, Death, Burial, etc, are OK.
i.e. Focus Window BMD details are OK, Main tab Birth, Death, Marriage details are OK, Facts tab Age column is OK, functions that estimate dates are OK, etc...

However, if the TMG Tag Type List Labels are changed to use foreign language versions in TMG the process fails.
Change the TMG Death (DEAT) fact Label to the German Tot or Norwegian Død and the TMG (project) Fact Set imports a custom fact instead of the standard DEAT fact tag even though the TMG Tag Type List still defines the GEDCOM tag as DEAT.
Therefore, all the FH features associated with Death facts no longer recognise the imported death facts.
The same problem applies if all the other facts have their TMG Labels changed. None are imported as Attributes!
In particular, the family Marriage (MARR) fact imports as one Individual Ekteskap fact and a Fact Witness with a Role of Principal 2 for the spouse, which is almost impossible to fix.

It seems that the FH direct import process is ignoring the TMG GEDCOM tag definitions and only using the Label names.

That explains the symptoms in the Import TMG data. (19658) where none of the BMD details are recognised in FH and why Give Witness.. then Migrate Census. Importing from TMG (19551) does not all the various CENS1871 labelled facts onto the FH standard CENS fact.

I think what should happen is the TMG GEDCOM tag value should be used to determine the FH Fact Type tag value and the TMG Label should set the FH Fact Type Label.

Maybe I and those other users are missing some important setting or FH v7.0 is not working as I would expect.
Can anybody provide an alternative explanation?
Do others agree that it is a CP problem that needs reporting?

[POSTSCRIPT]
To prove the point I've edited the TMG SAMPLE_UK__ project Tag Type List in two further ways:
  1. Changed the Label of the Baptism (GEDCOM = BAPM) to Death.
    In FH v6 that still imports as a standard Baptism BAPM event but not in FH v7.0.
  2. Changed all the CENS**** facts to use GEDCOM = CENS instead of EVEN.
    In FH v6 that imports all such CENS**** facts as standard Census CENS facts but not in FH v7.0.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
Jane
Site Admin
Posts: 8508
Joined: 01 Nov 2002 15:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Somerset, England
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by Jane »

The problem was actually where the US English language pack had been changed to a foreign language rather than creating or using a separate language pack in TMG. I beleive Calico are already aware of the issue.
Jane
My Family History : My Photography "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by tatewise »

Jane, who changed the US English language pack where? I have not touched the TMG language packs.
My experiments today have used the SAMPLE_UK__ project that comes with the TMG installation from the FHUG KB.

I don't understand what that has to do with ignoring the GEDCOM tag definitions that are independent of language.

If CP are aware of the problem it is a pity the several TMG migrants with problems have not been made aware.

Without any better information or a simple workaround, I intend to report this directly to CP soon.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
Jane
Site Admin
Posts: 8508
Joined: 01 Nov 2002 15:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Somerset, England
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by Jane »

In TMG did you change the labels in the default fact templates in TMG to set the values?

My understanding is the correct way to use languages in TMG is to create the TMG equivalent of a language pack and not change the US English Labels.

I am not sure how CP are supposed to contact TMG users who might have the problem if they do not contact support.
Jane
My Family History : My Photography "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by tatewise »

This experiment again uses the SAMPLE_UK__ project that comes with the TMG installation.
I have done as suggested and used the TMG File > Language command and chosen Norwegian.
( Presumably, that is similar to the FH Language Pack concepts. )
Now the TMG user interface uses Norwegian and the Tag Type List definitions have Norwegian Labels and Sentence Templates that produce a Norwegian narrative Report. i.e. Fødsel for BIRT, and Død for DEAT, etc, etc.
The English (U.S.) tag Labels and Sentence Templates still have all the English wording.

In FH I used the TMG direct import with the TMG Import Options for Language:* set to Norwegian.
That imported the TMG (project) Fact Set using all the English (U.S.) tag Labels and <eclipsed> the Standard facts.
However, all the FH TMG (project) Fact Set Labels were still in English and not Norwegian, but the Sentence Templates did import the Norwegian version, which is some success. :D
I set the Header record Language to Norwegian/Norsk and re-opened the Project but didn't spot any changes.

I repeated the above with the TMG File > Language set to English and the Norwegian fact Sentence Templates were imported. So the TMG Language setting only affects TMG and has no impact on the FH direct import.

To get Norwegian Fact Type Labels would require a manual edit to the FH TMG (project) Fact Set. :(

However, that does not solve the problem where the TMG user has changed the English (U.S.) tag Labels and Sentence Templates, which I hope to investigate next. i.e. How to reset the TMG Tag Type List to use English tag Labels.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by tatewise »

To reset the TMG Tag Type List Labels to English (U.S.), I tried the Translate option and the SAMPLE_UK__ project.
Unfortunately, that does not offer an English (U.S.) option, only EnglishUK and English2, which did nothing useful.

So I exported the SAMPLE_UK__ project Tag Type List and imported it into the 'Norwegian' project Tag Type List using the option to Import and overwrite if the tag type already exists.

That 'Norwegian' project then imported to FH quite successfully with the TMG Import Options for Language:* set to Norwegian as described earlier. :D
The TMG (project) Fact Set may need some manual editing, the Header record Language set to Norwegian/Norsk, and the Norwegian Language Pack installed, but that is another topic.

Regarding the mapping of TMG UK Census 1841 to Census 1901 facts onto a single FH standard Census fact, that needs the English (U.S.) Labels of all those seven facts to be changed to just Census in the TMG Tag Type List.
When imported to FH the one Census fact will inherit the Sentence Template from the TMG original Census fact.

IMO some of these techniques need documenting in the FH Help &/or the KB.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
avatar
KFN
Superstar
Posts: 274
Joined: 20 Jun 2021 01:00
Family Historian: V7

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by KFN »

Unless I’m reading this wrong, GEDCOM tags should follow the standard.

If TMG is producing a GEDCOM that does not follow the GEDCOM standard tags, such as the GEDCOM tag “DEAT” now exported as tag DØD then TMG is wrong and should be fixed!

I’ve never had an issue with a GEDCOM that contained Norwegian text in any GEDCOM when the tags followed the GEDCOM Standard. Tags such as DEAT, BIRT etc, should be translated by the display to languages for the reader but not in the actual GEDCOM.
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by tatewise »

KFN, this is not discussing GEDCOM files. It is about the direct import process from the TMG database files into FH and how it copes with foreign languages including fact Sentence Templates that do not exist in GEDCOM files.

TMG does export its GEDCOM files using standard tags such as BIRT and DEAT but that is not under discussion.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by tatewise »

I would be interested in comments from other users regarding the TMG direct import strategies below.

FH v5 & v6
Until FH v7 the TMG direct import of fact definitions focussed on the TMG Tag Type List GEDCOM tag.
I presume FH v5 & v6 had a fallback position for facts with a missing or invalid GEDCOM tag, which would be the same as for those that had the GEDCOM tag set to EVEN for custom events.
That strategy meant a GEDCOM file exported from TMG and imported to FH had similar fact definitions as the direct import method because the common factor was the GEDCOM tag.

If a TMG migrant wanted to merge all seven TMG UK Census 1841 to Census 1901 facts onto a single FH standard Census fact, then the FHUG advice was to change all seven TMG Tag Type List GEDCOM tags to CENS. Then the direct import mapped all those seven facts onto the FH standard Census fact in line with the FHUG KB recommendations. However, in TMG, those seven Census 1841 to Census 1901 facts would still be operational with their original Labels.

FH v7
To cope with foreign languages, the FH v7 direct import method creates a local Project TMG Fact Set, where any synonymous Standard Fact Set definitions get <eclipsed>.
The focus has changed from the GEDCOM tag to the English (U.S.) Label for each fact in the TMG Tag Type List, but the crucial importance of those English (U.S.) Labels is not mentioned in the FH Help pages and has led to misunderstandings with TMG imports in recent postings.
Jane suggests that CP have a known problem with that approach due to changes in the English (U.S.) Labels presumably in different versions of TMG.
It is also tempting for TMG users to Edit those Labels to adjust the fact names, or convert them to a foreign language instead of using the File > Language command recommended in TMG.
The consequence is that Labels that do not match what FH expects for Standard facts get imported as custom facts with dire side-effects as discussed in recent postings.
There appears to be no easy way to reset just the TMG English (U.S.) Labels to default installation values. Instead, the entire Tag Type List for all languages must be imported from the TMG Sample Project and may upset customised Sentence Templates.

If a TMG migrant wants to merge all seven TMG UK Census 1841 to Census 1901 facts onto a single FH standard Census fact, then the FHUG advice now is to change all seven TMG Tag Type List Labels to Census. Then the direct import maps all those seven facts onto the FH standard Census fact in line with the FHUG KB recommendations. However, in TMG, those seven Census 1841 to Census 1901 facts then all have the same name. Only one of the seven TMG Census fact Sentence Templates will get imported to the FH Project TMG Fact Set, but only that one Sentence Template needs to be edited to achieve whatever narrative sentence the user desires.

It is far less likely that the standard GEDCOM tags would get changed or edited in TMG, so reverting to GEDCOM tags seems a better option. After all, the standard GEDCOM tags are formally defined so why would they change?
The fallback position for facts with a missing or invalid GEDCOM tag would continue to use the Label for custom facts.
This technique would allow a TMG pseudo GEDCOM tag of FACT (or _ATTR) to specify that a custom Attribute is to be imported instead of a custom Event, rather than relying on whether the actual facts have a value or not, which often results in both custom Attributes and Events with the same Label.

The import of foreign language variant Sentence Templates is unaffected by whether Labels or GEDCOM tags are the focus for Fact Type definitions.

It is odd that when a foreign language import option is chosen the FH TMG Fact Set Labels remain in English. Is that a bug?

Proposals
I propose that CP be asked to implement the following strategies. What do others think?
  1. Use TMG GEDCOM tag definitions to import Standard GEDCOM Facts and only use English (U.S.) Labels otherwise.
  2. Allow a special TMG GEDCOM Tag of FACT to define that a custom Attribute must be used, and not a custom Event.
  3. When a foreign language import option is chosen set the TMG Fact Type Labels to match the TMG foreign Labels as well as the Sentence Templates.
  4. Improve the FH Help page to specify what crucially determines how Fact Types are defined, i.e. GEDCOM tags or Labels.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
bjz
Silver
Posts: 9
Joined: 30 Nov 2016 00:19
Family Historian: V7
Location: Seattle, Wash.
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by bjz »

I can't speak to non-US English, but having this fresh in my mind, your proposal seems reasonable, Mike. I conformed my special tags to the GEDCOM standard on purpose and it seems to me the standard is the standard, FH should take the GEDCOM tag specified in TMG, whatever the label is, and using the label if the tag is invalid makes sense.

--Barbara
--Barbara
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TMG Fact Type import issues

Post by tatewise »

The situation appears to have moved on from August when I posted my summary.

In September, FH v7.0.8 was released and seems to have reverted to the FH v5 & v6 strategy of focusing on the TMG Tag Type List GEDCOM tag, but I cannot get CP to confirm that change.

However, there still seem to be problems with how Sentence Templates are imported and associated with imported Facts.

I raised this topic with CP but they are finding it difficult to understand the problem despite several attempts to explain the symptoms. Perhaps you could contact them too.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Post Reply