* Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

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RS3100
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Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by RS3100 »

When I started researching my family history, one of my main sources of information was an envelope inherited from my parents which contained birth, death and marriage certificates for my parents and grandparents, together with other documents such as National Identity cards and my father's RAF service book.

Knowing the source of these documents, I took them at face value, and it wasn't until I had accrued a fairly substantial amount of information on my paternal grandfather's ancestors, that I found that "his" birth certificate related to an identically named person who I have now established beyond any doubt was not my grandfather, who it has turned out was an orphan. I was misled by the fact that his mother, whose details appear on the certificate, was from a village in Somerset where some of my grandmother's ancestors lived, and only two miles from where she was born; and although the date of birth differed by a few months from that found on other documents including my grandfather's naval service record, I put that down to the not unusual practice of young men being inventive with the facts when attempting to join the military at a younger age. Lesson now learned!

The person to whom the certificate actually relates does not so far appear to have any direct connection to my family, and was born in 1900. The certificate is a certified copy obtained from Somerset House in 1948. Is there any way by which the details of the original applicant can be obtained, by reference to the application number written on the certificate?

I know it probably won't help me in any useful way, but I would be interested to find out whether the certificate was obtained by my grandfather who died in 1959, or another relative - my father, uncle or grandmother, for instance.
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by AdrianBruce »

What an interesting question. I think you'd need either Sherlock Holmes or a Time Machine to answer it....

This is a complete guess on my part but gut feeling says "No" for two reasons.
(1) I can see no value on the GRO or the Superintendent Register Offices keeping that information. Perhaps they might keep it for a couple of months in case of a "You sent me the wrong certificate!" argument but there must be a time limit on those arguments. The numbers are to identify the certificates, not to identify the enquirer. Not to mention that it would be a huge amount of data.

(2) Even if such info were available, 10 to 1 some Data Confidentiality guy would say that the information couldn't be disclosed.

I'd be fascinated to know of any counter-argument!
Adrian
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LornaCraig
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by LornaCraig »

I don't know whether there would still be any record of who the applicant was, but it seems unlikely. You could try emailing GRO to ask if they keep that kind of information. https://www.gov.uk/general-register-office

Did your grandfather know who his parents were? If he did, and he ordered the certificate himself, he would have realised that he had been sent the wrong certificate. The fact that the wrong certificate was kept suggests that either he didn't know his date of birth or his parents' names himself, or someone else obtained it for some reason.

Only you know the family circumstances. Can you think of any reason why your grandfather might have needed his birth certificate in 1948? Was he applying for a passport?
Lorna
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RS3100
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by RS3100 »

Thank you both. My first thought was the GRO, but I couldn't find an email address on their website. There is a contact form which involves a redirect you You.gov and doesn't seem to be set up to accommodate anything other than briefly worded enquiries about existing orders. There is a phone number, so I'll have to try that.

I have no evidence or reason to assume that my grandfather would have required a passport at that time. I don't know if he would ever have had one, although he served in the RN until 1936 in various foreign locations, but after being pensioned he was a Coastguard at several south coast stations and died in service in 1959. I was only two at the time and to be honest my only memory of him might be reimagined from photographs.

Having uncovered the birth certificate issue, I started again with what I knew for certain - his RN service record and 1939 census in particular, which were linked by his navy pension number. I then found him in the 1911 census as one of two orphans living with a widow and her son in Suffolk. A little over a year later both orphaned boys were sent to the Training Ship "Exmouth" and his subsequent discharge was on the same day that his Royal Navy service began. Additionally, the son of the woman he was living with in 1911 was a witness at his wedding 10 years later, so I have no doubt that identification is correct.

The 1911 Census records his place of birth as West Ham, but although from a West Ham family, the person I now believe him to be was actually born in Lincolnshire, during a period of time when his parents had moved near to his mother's family. They must have moved back to London not long after the birth though, because his mother died in West Ham in early 1901, and in the census of that year he, his father then described as a widower, and his older brother were recorded in the household of his uncle as boarders. His father also died shortly after, of smallpox during the epidemic. It may be that when the 1911 census form was completed, his "guardian" only knew that he had arrived with her from West Ham.

So the question arises as to whether he actually knew who his natural family were. I can't answer that. My parents never mentioned anything about them, and the only direct relatives I knew of from my father's direct lineage were my grandfather, his brother and my cousins. There were only two boys with his name born in the year of his birth, the other being registered in Marylebone, so it could be possible that he obtained the birth certificate for himself, and possibly believing he was born in London and not knowing anything of his parents, that was the record which Somerset House presented to him. But that is supposition of course.

Interestingly, my maternal grandmother was also adopted, and my family professed to know nothing of her natural parents. One of my uncles' even stated as much in a letter he wrote to me 20 years ago which outlined what he had discovered of the history of my mothers' side of the family. Yet her father's name was stated on her marriage certificate, and he turns out to have been quite an interesting man who fathered numerous children over the course of six marriages, five of which were to women substantially younger than himself, and two of them almost certainly bigamous. That certainly wouldn't have gone down at all well with my aunt, who was something of a Hyacinth Bucket character on steroids, so probably the family decided to keep that under wraps!

I didn't have a great deal of interest in my family history at the time, but now of course the only people who might have been able to answer many of my questions are no longer with us.

I'll try phoning the GRO over the next couple of days and let you know the outcome.

As far as the data protection argument goes, my stance would be that it is a question regarding a direct family member, and the subject of the certificate and any other family member who might possibly have applied for it at that time are all now deceased, so I would expect that they could at least confirm or deny that the applicant was related to me, provided of course that they have that information.
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by David2416 »

Does the certificate have the date it was purchased on? (Ones I have purchased do). If so does the date give any pointers as to who or why it was purchased? Which people were around or what events were taking place?
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Yes, it's worth thinking about family events at the time -- I had a similar question at https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/que ... first-half which is so far unanswerable.
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RS3100
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by RS3100 »

David, it was issued in 1948 - see my first post.

Lorna, thank you. I have just re-read your reply with a clear head after a night's sleep and see that the link you included does show an email address for the GRO. I will give that a try as I feel an email may be more likely to end up with someone who can at least give a definitive answer, rather than a possible "guesstimate" by someone on the end of a customer help line.

I'm leaning towards the theory that my grandfather requested the certificate, and knowing nothing of his natural family, but armed with what he was aware of via his "adoption", stated his birth date and that he was incorrectly born in London. The person subject of the certificate obtained would have been the only possible match, based on that information.

I can't think of any reason why my father or uncle would have needed to obtain it at that time.
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by gwilym'smum »

Hi
You seem to be concentrating on the GRO. The GRO indexes do have errors as they do not have the original registers only copies sent from the local register offices. If you think you know where he was born try the local register office. You will need to add as much family information as possible or they might have a county bmd list such as the excellent one for Staffordshire. My Joseph Woodvine is not on the GRO index but I had his death certificate from Shrewsbury as he was in their registers. Also do not forget parish registers, you never know he might be in there with more family information.
Just a couple of thoughts
Ann
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Researching Mayer, Parr/Parr, Simcock, Beech and all related families
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Martin Tolley
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by Martin Tolley »

My tuppence - Was a birth cert needed for making a will? If so, it might be that a solicitor/solicitor's clerk made the application, and with only approximate information, got the best match that Somerset House could provide? And the process for application was not then what it is today. GRO methinks is a totally different body today. It would involve manual searching and physical form filling, all areas prone to error and where "near enough" would be good enough. I'd guess if any forms were used for the application and still stored anywhere they'd not be searchable today.
I think the suggestion of Local registration offices is a good one to follow. Although my experience is that the level of help can range from the outstandingly good to the far end of excruciatingly bad (I'm looking at you Northampton!)
Please keep us informed of how you get on. I find these types of problems really interesting - family history research can sometimes get a bit mechanical, click, collect and enter, job done. Situtations like yours make you stop and think. Good for the skills.
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by mjashby »

@RS3100

Another possibility, depending on your Grandfather's age in 1948, is that that was the year when the 'universal entitlement' to a State Pension (in the UK) became law under the 1946 Act; and he might have been asked to produce some 'proof of age'.

By the way, in the public Civil Service Departments the 'rule of thumb' was that routine documentation, e.g. general correspondence, records of interviews etc. was usually destroyed when no longer considered to be of of any relevance. i.e. unless there was a specified retention period. This was widely interpreted as 3 years, rising to 7 years for most financial records such as personal taxation records. We are of course talking here of pre-computerisation days here when it would have been impossible to manage the retention of routine/transient documentation considered to be of no continuing relevance/value to the Department concerned.
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RS3100
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by RS3100 »

He was 48/49 in 1948 and died before he would have been entitled to a state pension, but would he have needed to register for it around that time?

Martin, a will is the only possible reason I can think of so far. That's one thing I haven't yet acquired a copy of, so I must do that. But as far as the local registration office is concerned...

Ann, I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the information contained on the physical paper certificate, insofar as it relates to the person it concerns. It is that the person it relates to is not the person who had possession of it, albeit they had the same name. Whilst I understand and agree with everything you have said regarding local office versus GRO records, my query solely concerns the identity of the person who requested the production of the physical paper copy now in my possession.

As the physical certificate was produced by Somerset House, I assume that the original applicant approached them to obtain it. So although the original birth record for that person was made at Marylebone District Office, I'm not sure how the original office could help answer the question of who ordered it from Somerset House?

Anyway, I have emailed the GRO this morning. I will let you know the result when I get a reply.
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by LornaCraig »

I too had wondered whether the certificate was needed in order to claim a pension, but I realised from your first post that he would have been only 48 at the time so ruled it out. A passport was my only other suggestion.

However in answer to your question “would he have needed to register for it around that time?” I don’t know, but a few years earlier it was not necessary to produce a certificate until the age of 65. I have birth certificates for two of my great-grandparents which were issued in 1940 and 1941 when they each turned 65. In each case the certificate is headed “Supplied at the special fee of 1/- applicable in certain statutory cases”. Below that a space has been filled in showing that the reason in this case was “Contributory Pensions Act”. So it is clear from the certificate why it was issued. Admittedly I think these particular certificates came from the local Register Office rather than the GRO.

As your grandfather’s parents both died when he was young my best guess is that he was simply trying to find out something about them. It’s sad to think that the “information” he received was wrong and he probably never knew that it was wrong!
Lorna
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by brianlummis »

One other possible need for a birth certificate is proof of age to a life insurance company. This was sometimes done at the time of taking out a policy or would be a requirement of a lender if the person had taken out a loan and the policy was to be used as security. From my banking career I can recall ledgers being marked with the statement "age admitted" to show that the necessary birth certificate had been noted by the insurance company!!

Brian
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by victor »

Just bear in mind not all BMD details reached the GRO. So it is best to search the local history centre. Since West Ham has been the place mentioned there could be details in the Metropolitan archives. I have found some certificates here and downloaded them free.

As I have said the GRO does not have all the records the local registry office should have them all. My mother's two sisters married in the 1930's and the GRO does not have any record of them. I kind of guessed which church they married in and went to the local History Centre to look up the parish records and found the marriage certificates for them both on there.

Victor
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RS3100
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by RS3100 »

I've had a preliminary acknowledgement for my enquiry with GRO, confirming that they will respond more fully in due course.

Victor, the issue is not with attempting to locate any individual BMD records. I have a copy of the birth record for the person who I now believe to be my grandfather. I have a paper certificate issued by Somerset House in 1948 for an identically named person who I have established is not my grandfather. The BMD record for that person is also locatable via GRO, FreeBMD, FMP, Ancestry and other usual suspects. So I have no difficulty in trying to find a BMD record for either of them.

My only query is regarding the circumstances in which the "wrong" paper certificate came to be in the possession of my parents, from who I inherited it. To that end, I have simply asked GRO if they have any records from Somerset House that would identify the certificate applicant who received the paper copy issued in 1948.
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RS3100
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by RS3100 »

A final update, following a reply from the GRO.

Since sending my original enquery, I received two interim replies confirming that my email had been forwarded to relevant departments for further enquiries, which gave me some hope, as at least they hadn't replied with an outright "No".

Having now received the final response though, they say that legislation only allows for the release of information from the central copy of registrations "by means of the issue of a paper certified copy or a Portable Document Format copy of a relevant entry, after payment of the relevant statutory fee" [and so they are] "unable to provide information relating to order histories or customer details".

So whilst they haven't actually said whether such information is retrievable or not, the end result is the same.

Having applied for a copy of my grandfather's will, it transpires that he died intestate, and I can see no other obvious reason for the application being made at the relevant time. It may well be that he was trying to find out something about his family and origins, and had sadly obtained the wrong information without ever realising it, as Lorna suggests.
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Re: Information re a historic Birth Certificate application.

Post by LornaCraig »

Thanks for that update, and I'm sorry you didn't get any joy from GRO (but not surprised!)
Lorna
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