* brick wall in New Zealand

Got general Family History research questions - this is the place
User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 22 Mar 2020 19:06

Is there a site where you can get family info that's more obscure and seeming impossible to locate. I have a father that seems to just NOT want come forth and help me complete that side the family.
IN fact Nothing past my father.
One reason I offer is we were brought up to call our elders aunt and Uncle. Even neighbors so it is near impossible I would say.
MyHeritage Nothing
I have tried the N Z army with the service number on his grave. NOTHING
Various RSA clubs, Is on the honers board at one, but they hold NO records.
Undertaker, as per the death notice NOTHING
NZ Birth Deaths for a birth Certificate. NOTHING
Other family, Nothing.
Other family from dads side, well there's the problem, IS there any??
.

So some hints be good please.

avatar
Gowermick
Megastar
Posts: 811
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 07:22
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Swansea

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by Gowermick » 22 Mar 2020 19:16

It would help if you supplied some more details, like names, dates and locations where known
Mike Loney

Using FH 6.2.7, with CC 6.7.37 Windows 10 Home, LibreOffice (x64), Firefox(x64) & Thunderbird
Website http://www.loney.tribalpages.com
http://www.mickloney.tribalpages.com

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 18630
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by tatewise » 22 Mar 2020 19:37

Welcome to the FHUG, Peter.

There may be some resources in Knowledge Base > Useful Research Web Sites that might help.

Please supply more specific details about your father and where you have drawn blanks.
Some users here just love a challenge.

Sometimes it needs a bit of lateral thinking to break brickwalls, like using unusual variants of names.
I have found my records transcribed under Tait, Pate, and other variants of Tate.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 22 Mar 2020 20:01

there isn't much

Harold Joseph Hill (Only knew him as Harry) Born 1921-1924 Place unknown.
May have a link to Palmerston North or Feilding

May have married my mother in 1964 or after. Maureen Faye Grant (Nee Smith) was divorced from Keith Grant in 1964

Sons,
Peter Joseph Hill Born 1959 (Me)
Walter Charles Born 1960
Baby Died, Trevor

Dads Cemetery Details
HILL, HARRY JOSEPH
Plot : SOLDIERS BURIAL M Row 16, Plot 157
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : HILL
Given Names: HARRY JOSEPH
Age : 57
Gender : Male
Occupation: STOREMAN
Date Of Death : 30-Dec-1978
Date Of Burial : 03-Jan-1979
Funeral Director : CONVERTED RECORD

If dads age is right above (57) he was born in 1921
If dads age is right on both our Birth Cert (54) in 1959 then he was born in 1924

I have mine and my Brothers birth Cert
Mine shows - B1959, Father Harry Joseph Hill age 35 from Palmerston North
Wallys shows - B1960 Father Harry Joseph Hill age 35 from Fielding



As for mums details, Well she appears to get younger the older she got and the surnames etc changes, which I assume is because she was already married, and Tring to not be located. Only an assumption on my part.

User avatar
LornaCraig
Megastar
Posts: 1750
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 17:36
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by LornaCraig » 22 Mar 2020 20:14

Harry Joseph Hill features in three members trees on Ancestry, but I see that you are the owner of one of them!

In case he was actually born in the UK, there was a Harry J Hill born in Q2 1922 in Newton Abbot registration district, Devon, mother's maiden name Lambshead. (Vol 5B p 145)

By the way you say you knew him as Harry but that his full name was Harold. Do you know that for sure? Harry could also be short for Henry.
Lorna

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 22 Mar 2020 21:23

I have a tree on Ancestry?? Em, I was well into doing my family history a while ago, but following a stroke it sort took a back seat. Now determined to finish as much as I can. Being a Grandfather to 2 x 3YO twins sort pushed that,

I do not have any concrete proof his name was Harold Joseph Hill apart from documents in relation to the divorce were he is named as Harold Joseph Hill.

On My birth Cert he is named - Harry Joseph Hill
And on my brothers he is just - Joseph Hill

Only other thing I have is an address were we lived from 1962 until his death. 12 Beverly Place New Lynn, Auckland, N.Z.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 18630
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by tatewise » 22 Mar 2020 22:36

Peter, you did not mention searching the New Zealand Death Index.
In FindMyPast there is an entry for Hill, Harry Joseph 1979 New Zealand Death Index with a transcript.
But I cannot view that record because I only have a UK subscription.
It may give his Age &/or Date/Place of Birth, etc.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

User avatar
LornaCraig
Megastar
Posts: 1750
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 17:36
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by LornaCraig » 22 Mar 2020 23:05

Only other thing I have is an address were we lived from 1962 until his death. 12 Beverly Place New Lynn, Auckland, N.Z.
Yes, that's in your (very small) tree on Ancestry, which it seems you didn't know you had! https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/ ... 9795/facts

The other public tree on Ancestry is here https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/ ... 6360/facts
It has an exact date of birth of 2 May 1921 but there is no source recorded for that, and no details of his parents.
Lorna

avatar
Gowermick
Megastar
Posts: 811
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 07:22
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Swansea

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by Gowermick » 22 Mar 2020 23:17

Following Mike Tates hint about findmypast, I too had a look, and FMP also has a link to the billiongraves website. The billiongraves website has an entry for his burial, the link is :- https://billiongraves.com/grave/H-J-Hill/14520037
Mike Loney

Using FH 6.2.7, with CC 6.7.37 Windows 10 Home, LibreOffice (x64), Firefox(x64) & Thunderbird
Website http://www.loney.tribalpages.com
http://www.mickloney.tribalpages.com

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 23 Mar 2020 00:07

yes I have his grave details. They tell one hardly anything really,

H.J. Hill
2nd NZEF
died 30.12.1978
Service number is 779746

That's all on the grave marker.
The service numbers a mystery as the NZ defence force has no record of it at all.
I believe the R.S.A may have buried him, but they have NO RECORDS.
I spent nearly a month trying get anything out the R.S.A , was fruitless apart from him being on a honours board at one.

I have managed to contact someone that may have been the undertakers, and they no longer exist, But she is trying hard to locate a record. If that exists it may tell me who paid etc. and it may turnout the number was transcribed wrong on the grave market (plate) what ever one calls it.
So its not my father I am looking for, I know exactly were he is. Its his connections/ Family.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 18630
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by tatewise » 23 Mar 2020 00:08

Yes, the Grave details Peter mentioned earlier giving 2nd NZEF service number 779746.
i.e. 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force to Europe in WWII.

What about the New Zealand Death Index entry?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 23 Mar 2020 06:56

tatewise wrote:
23 Mar 2020 00:08
Yes, the Grave details Peter mentioned earlier giving 2nd NZEF service number 779746.
i.e. 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force to Europe in WWII.

What about the New Zealand Death Index entry?
Is that New Zealand births,deaths and Marriages?
I applied for Dads birth cert and they could not find one.

User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 1703
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 23 Mar 2020 07:51

Have you looked for records of him immigrating to NZ, as you don't know he was born there.

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 23 Mar 2020 10:16

I am sorry ColeValleyGirl I have no idea how to do that. With just a name and a possble birth date. There really isn't anything else.

User avatar
Valkrider
Megastar
Posts: 1277
Joined: 04 Jun 2012 19:03
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by Valkrider » 23 Mar 2020 10:24

Peter

FindMyPast has some 56 Hill entries in immigration for those with around his birth year. Don't forget that a lot of immigrants to NZ stopped off in Australia first.

User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 1703
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 23 Mar 2020 11:01

You need to go through a process of elimination. Examine each candidate arriving or born in New Zealand of the right(ish) age and the same or similar name, and track them forward from the point at which you first find them. Some of them will die at the 'wrong time/place', some of them will marry the wrong person... You're aiming to kill them all off or otherwise eliminate them -- anyone who is left may be your father.

Also, have you done a DNA test? If you do, you may find cousins on his side of your family.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 18630
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by tatewise » 23 Mar 2020 11:50

Following up on the migration theory, I searched FindMyPast for anyone named Hill on passenger lists for New Zealand around 1920 to 1940 and this dated 22 Nov 1924 was the only one that had a partial match.
HillFamilyEmigration.jpg
HillFamilyEmigration.jpg (82.12 KiB) Viewed 2579 times
The destination of the Harry Hill family is Napier, only 100 miles from Palmerston North and Feilding.

I found BMD records in FindMyPast for that family whose address was in Jarrow-on-Tyne, Durham:
b. Q2 1892 South Shields, Durham ~ Henry Waite Hill ~ possibly your grandfather
b. Q1 1893 South Shields, Durham ~ Prudence Bate ~ possibly your grandmother
m. Q3 1916 Newcastle upon Tyne ~ Henry W Hill & Prudence Bate
b. Q4 1919 South Shields, Durham ~ Ruth Hill ~ mother's maiden name Bates (sic)
b. Q4 1921 South Shields, Durham ~ Mary Hill ~ mother's maiden name Bates (sic)
b. Q2 1923 South Shields, Durham ~ Henry W Hill ~ mother's maiden name Bate ~ possibly your father
b. Q3 1924 South Shields, Durham ~ Ann B Hill ~ mother's maiden name Bate
d. 1973 New Zealand Death Index ~ Prudence Hill
d. 1979 New Zealand Death Index ~ Harry Joseph Hill

Note that Henry Waite Hill called himself Harry on the passenger list, so maybe his son (your father?) did likewise, but his middle initial W and middle name Joseph are a mismatch.

Peter, I suggest you apply for your father's Death Certificate via the New Zealand Death Index and also for your possible grandmother Prudence Hill as they may contain some useful details.
Do those names of your possible aunts Ruth, Mary & Ann B ring any bells?

I have also found on FamilySearch their immigration records for 2 Jan 1925 in Auckland.

However, there are some lines of research to follow up for that family.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

avatar
DonF
Diamond
Posts: 90
Joined: 07 Dec 2014 00:31
Family Historian: V6.2
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by DonF » 24 Mar 2020 01:05

Peter
I'm not sure if you have obtained the divorce records at https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/Vi ... e=22745216 where you father appears to be the co-respondent.
These records are reserved until 2072, but given all parties are deceased and you can prove your reason for wanting to see them, I think you should be able to get access.
That should give you his address in 1962 and if you then work backwards through the NZ Voters Lists in Ancestry you MIGHT be able to find him living with his parents at an earlier date. (I note your parents apear in 1969 in these lists at Beverley Place, as you have said).

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 24 Mar 2020 22:12

yes I have accessed all that, Got high court permission, I know exactly where he was from approx 1962.

Its the before that I just can not get a track on.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 18630
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by tatewise » 24 Mar 2020 22:42

Are you saying you have seen and followed up that passenger list in the NZ Voters Lists and obtained Death Certificates for your father and Prudence Hill?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 29 Mar 2020 07:40

Sorry Mike you have totally lost me. I got the Divorce info from the court for my mother Maureen and her first husband.
Are you saying you have seen and followed up that passenger list in the NZ Voters Lists and obtained Death Certificates for your father and Prudence Hill?
I must missed that, and with the lockdown I suspect there will be no obtaining Death Certificates for a while.

I shall go back and read the messages in case I missed something

UPDATE: Yes I failed to see that post you referred to, That is very interesting to be Honest, very much worth following up on that info

User avatar
KiwiPeterHill
Platinum
Posts: 47
Joined: 08 Jun 2017 08:56
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Waiuku, Auckland, New Zealand

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by KiwiPeterHill » 30 Mar 2020 07:20

Mike how does one get the immigration records?
I am carefully printing all the info and when things get back normal I can apply for stuff.

As for remembering aunts, Every adult we met was aunt or uncle. Just the way we got raised.

I like to think this is the missing link, and I shall treat it as such until proved otherwise.

User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 18630
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by tatewise » 30 Mar 2020 10:11

I found the immigration records online at https://www.familysearch.org/.
If you don't have an account you must use CREATE ACCOUNT top right to get a free account and SIGN IN.

Select Search > Records and enter First & Last Names as Prudence Hill and tick the Match exactly boxes.
Enter the Birth Year (Range) from 1892 to 1894
Under Restrict records by: set the Country to New Zealand and click blue Search button.
( I tend to use Prudence Hill for searches as that is a more unusual name than Harry Hill. )

You should get a 2 Jan 1925 Passenger Lists immigration record and a 1958 Probate record.

View the record & image details on the right and the Passenger List matches the embarkation list on FindMyPast.
The image has a list of records underneath for each passenger including the Hill family.
It is not clear to me whether they actually settled in Auckland after arriving in Napier, or whether the immigration was just registered in Auckland but they stayed near Napier.

The 1958 Probate record date does not match the 1973 NZ Death Index that I found on FindMyPast.
So maybe there were two Prudence Hill's?

As advised by DonF, and confirmed by me, there are many NZ Voters List entries for those Hill family names on Ancestry.
But I do not have an Ancestry account so cannot review the details.
If you do not have an Ancestry account, start by creating a free account and see if any records are worthwhile.
Then you can decide whether to pay for an account.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

User avatar
LornaCraig
Megastar
Posts: 1750
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 17:36
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by LornaCraig » 30 Mar 2020 13:31

Sorry to bring disappointing news, but Harry and Prudence Hill and their children feature in quite a lot of public trees on Ancestry. According to these, their son Harry junior was Henry Wilson Hill (this confirms the middle initial W in the passenger list) and he died in 2005 in Napier. One of the trees shows that he married in December 1944 but details of his spouse and children are private.

I believe you know that your father died in December 1978, so this must be a different person. ( I have not done any research to verify the details in the Ancestry trees. You should probably do some basic searching in NZ records to check the alleged facts.)
Lorna

User avatar
trevorrix
Famous
Posts: 157
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 20:27
Family Historian: V6.2
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: brick wall in New Zealand

Post by trevorrix » 01 Apr 2020 08:52

Peter, have you taken any DNA tests? I recommend AncestryDNA and the Y-DNA37 test at Family Tree DNA?
Trevor Rix

Post Reply