Sadler Disputed descent
Posted: 11 Feb 2019 11:29
I mentioned on this Forum in connection with writing a query (see DNA Descent through the male line (16601)) that there has been a bitter genealogical dispute in my Sadler family about whether or not it is descended from Sir Ralph Sadler of Wolf Hall fame. For a moment I wondered if it could be resolved through DNA.
Since someone kindly commented on the research involved, I am moving to this section of the forum to outline the problem.
When Michael Thomas Sadler M.P.1780-1835, stood for Parliament he believed that he was descended from Sir Ralph Sadler via a family in Warwickshire. This belief was discussed and not dismissed in 1809 in Clifford's Sadler Papers (i.e. Papers of Sir Ralph) edited by Walter Scott, 1809 Vol. 2 p. 612. This remained undisputed till the 1930s.
In 1936 my grandmother's uncle, Sir Michael Ernest Sadler, Master of University College, Oxford, applied to carry the arms of the Sadler family. His claim was rejected in a four page report by the Garter King of Arms, Anthony R. Wagner, dated 6 November 1936. I have a copy of this and notice some observations ignore baptisms now on line on the Derbyshire /Staffordshire border.
My father Geoffrey Gollin 1902-1992, a serious amateur genealgist re-investigated both Sadler families and employed a professional to assist. I listed and reported his enquiries over the years for my mother's cousin, the late Michael Miller Q.C. who again looked into our early family history, using documents in the national Archive. Neither my father nor Michael found any support for the claimed relationship to Sir Ralph. So the official rejection stood.
My father's (and my) rejection of the descent was much resented by the family of Ernest Sadler who researched the family in the 19th century and who prepared the classic family tree. Communication was broken off. The unproven descent from Sir Ralph remains unchallenged as the majority view on ancestry. It is this persistence of a claim for which there is no evidence that troubles me
Although Michael Thomas Sadler and his family might have reason to cherish a descent from Sir Ralph (i.e.wishful thinking) my own feeling as a historian is that when people tell you things about their family, there is often a grain of truth somewhere. So every now and then I think I must find time to re-examine this question. But I can assure those who kindly responded to the other thread, that our research has been to a high standard. Just fruitless.
If anyone here has suggestions (which would be very welcome) or would like to take up the puzzle themselves, I would be glad to share all the reports and documents that I have.
Since someone kindly commented on the research involved, I am moving to this section of the forum to outline the problem.
When Michael Thomas Sadler M.P.1780-1835, stood for Parliament he believed that he was descended from Sir Ralph Sadler via a family in Warwickshire. This belief was discussed and not dismissed in 1809 in Clifford's Sadler Papers (i.e. Papers of Sir Ralph) edited by Walter Scott, 1809 Vol. 2 p. 612. This remained undisputed till the 1930s.
In 1936 my grandmother's uncle, Sir Michael Ernest Sadler, Master of University College, Oxford, applied to carry the arms of the Sadler family. His claim was rejected in a four page report by the Garter King of Arms, Anthony R. Wagner, dated 6 November 1936. I have a copy of this and notice some observations ignore baptisms now on line on the Derbyshire /Staffordshire border.
My father Geoffrey Gollin 1902-1992, a serious amateur genealgist re-investigated both Sadler families and employed a professional to assist. I listed and reported his enquiries over the years for my mother's cousin, the late Michael Miller Q.C. who again looked into our early family history, using documents in the national Archive. Neither my father nor Michael found any support for the claimed relationship to Sir Ralph. So the official rejection stood.
My father's (and my) rejection of the descent was much resented by the family of Ernest Sadler who researched the family in the 19th century and who prepared the classic family tree. Communication was broken off. The unproven descent from Sir Ralph remains unchallenged as the majority view on ancestry. It is this persistence of a claim for which there is no evidence that troubles me
Although Michael Thomas Sadler and his family might have reason to cherish a descent from Sir Ralph (i.e.wishful thinking) my own feeling as a historian is that when people tell you things about their family, there is often a grain of truth somewhere. So every now and then I think I must find time to re-examine this question. But I can assure those who kindly responded to the other thread, that our research has been to a high standard. Just fruitless.
If anyone here has suggestions (which would be very welcome) or would like to take up the puzzle themselves, I would be glad to share all the reports and documents that I have.