* FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

AS allows faster and more convenient creation of source records for Family Historian.
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sbell95
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FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by sbell95 »

I am trying to use Ancestral Sources with FH7 to input census data into my family file, however I am struggling with using custom census sources created with my own source template definition. I have played with the various program options and read the help files for both FH7 and AS, but I'm still stuck...

Ancestral Sources seems to only support the use of the 'Essentials-Civil-Census Return' source template; is that correct? Is there scope in the future for my own custom census source template to be usable with AS? I don't see myself using AS if I can't use my own census source templates as the Essentials collection just doesn't cut it for me, which is a shame because I love the concept of data entry with AS!

I should mention that my custom source template is method 2 (lumping) and AS seems to only support census source templates for method 1... or am I missing something?
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

No AS will allow you to use advanced collection and custom source templates. However, all the templates in FH are method 1 templates - they attach fields to the source, rather than entirely in the citation. You could of course make your own very different customised source templates in FH which only add citation fields. You're correct though that AS doesn't currently support source templates for method 2 because it seemed to me that FH was steering people to method 1 (others may argue about this but the built in templates in FH are all method 1 templates). However, I suppose AS could in future allow templates in method 2 as long as the template only used citation fields.
Nick Walker
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by LornaCraig »

the built in templates in FH are all method 1 templates
Actually that's not quite true, Nick. The Civil Registration Index template and the Directory/List template are both Method 2. As it says in their descriptions, "one source per index...." or "One source per directory or list..." In fact the Directory/list one says it covers Electoral rolls, which AS now caters for in the census category.

But I agree that for other types FH is steering people towards Method 1.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by sbell95 »

LornaCraig wrote: 14 Feb 2021 11:31 But I agree that for other types FH is steering people towards Method 1.
I did find it strange that all of the Essentials/Advanced source templates were method 1 only, especially given the focus of the Advanced templates (being derived from Evidence Explained, as far as I can tell). I'm not sure if it was intentional on the part of the developers, but they still give us the choice of citation-only fields. It just seemed a shame to me that method 2 was a bit left out when it came to integrating with AS...
NickWalker wrote: 14 Feb 2021 08:33 No AS will allow you to use advanced collection and custom source templates. However, all the templates in FH are method 1 templates - they attach fields to the source, rather than entirely in the citation. You could of course make your own very different customised source templates in FH which only add citation fields. You're correct though that AS doesn't currently support source templates for method 2 because it seemed to me that FH was steering people to method 1 (others may argue about this but the built in templates in FH are all method 1 templates). However, I suppose AS could in future allow templates in method 2 as long as the template only used citation fields.
Thanks for your quick response, Nick. I have decided to go with method 1 sources for all of my UK censuses, for the mere fact of making them work with my data entry workflow in AS. I appreciate you keeping the software up-to-date with FH7.
Sarah Bell – Australia
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

To be honest the whole FH7 Source Template thing was very new to me too when I implemented it and as it appeared that all the relevant (thanks Lorna :)) templates in FH were method 1 I could see lots of confusion ahead when existing AS method 2 users decided they wanted to use templates too and then there would be lots of issues where I would have to explain why it didn't work for them and have to tell them how to create relevant custom templates in FH first, etc. Now I have a better understanding of it I can see that I could potentially support this but with lots of caveats, etc.
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by AdrianBruce »

sbell95 wrote: 14 Feb 2021 12:44... I did find it strange that all of the Essentials/Advanced source templates were method 1 only, especially given the focus of the Advanced templates (being derived from Evidence Explained, as far as I can tell). ...
It may or may not be useful to understand that Evidence Explained (at least as far as the edition that I have seen) does not in any way distinguish between what we tend to call Method 1 and Method 2 (aka Splitting and Lumping). EE concentrates on what the printed citations look like in reports and Elizabeth Shown Mills says time and again that she is not talking about how we enter data into software. Just about how it appears in reports - which can be hand-crafted, of course.

So yes, omitting Method 2 representations of EE citations might be thought less than useful - but EE doesn't require both. EE is software and splitting / lumping agnostic. It's just who's had the time and energy to concoct the source templates.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by BakerJL75 »

I'm jumping into this a bit late. I've been playing with FH7 for a couple months. I tried AS early on, but gave up. Now I'm trying again and have the same problem. And I think this thread explains it, but not sure. I tend to be a splitter. I have a custom vital records source definition for vital records that uses citation fields. It is loaded into FH7. I've checked the option to use custom templates in AS. But AS does not show my custom template source in the Templated Source dropdown. Is that because I've used citation fields? If so, if I make a custom source (lumper style) with no citation fields, then will it work?
Source definition fields:
Template Def.png
Template Def.png (105.9 KiB) Viewed 6940 times
Loaded Source Template in Records Window:
Loaded Source Template.png
Loaded Source Template.png (55.15 KiB) Viewed 6940 times
I can't get a screenshot with the dropdown open, but it's not there; this is the only custom one.
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AS.png (183.18 KiB) Viewed 6940 times
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NickWalker
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

I think you may have got the terminology mixed up. A lumper would put all the data in the citations with very few sources (e.g. 'England Census 1881','England Census 1891',etc.) - this is called 'method 2' in Ancestral Sources. A splitter would have very little data (probably none) in the citation and a source for every household - this is called 'method 2' in Ancestral Sources. Currently Ancestral Sources only supports the use of source templates with Method 1 which was prompted by the fact that all the relevant standard templates in FH7 are designed for splitters.

To load a template into AS you would need to go to Tools->Source Template Editor and then select the Source Type, then a template and then click Save.
Nick Walker
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by BakerJL75 »

Thank you Nick, and you are right, I got the terminology backwards. And I tried a template with no citation fields and it does work as expected. I'll just have to decide what I want to do.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

AS will add template citation fields (so they don't have to all be exclusively source fields), but currently it only works with Method 1 which will always create a new source for every entry.
Nick Walker
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by BEJ »

NickWalker wrote: 19 Feb 2021 19:21 To load a template into AS you would need to go to Tools->Source Template Editor and then select the Source Type, then a template and then click Save.
I have loaded Advanced and Custom source templates into my FH7 project. How do I get them to appear in the AS Source Type dropdown? I only see the Essential collection.

UPDATE: Ok, finally figured it out---click NEW in the Source Template Editor.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by BEJ »

FH7 source templates display the auto-generated bibliography, footnote, and short footnote when the source template window is open. Ancestral Sources does not.

Is there a way for AS to display the bibliography, footnote, and short footnote similar to FH7?
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

No it isn't possible for AS to preview them, but the footnotes, etc. should display correctly in FH when the source is viewed in FH after it's been created by AS.
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by BEJ »

Thanks. One more question...

I find it easier to create Prepared Sources in FH7. Is it possible to access a FH7 Prepared Source from Ancestral Sources?
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by tatewise »

The whole point of AS is that it 'prepares' the Source record and auto-adds the Citations for you.
How can you prepare the Source in FH when you don't know the field values that need to be entered?
What is the benefit anyway, since you are going to enter all those values into AS?
Are you saying you would fill in all the prepared Source record values and then AS must reverse engineer them to populate its dialogues?
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

BEJ wrote: 06 May 2021 12:30 I find it easier to create Prepared Sources in FH7. Is it possible to access a FH7 Prepared Source from Ancestral Sources?
Assuming I understand your question - a prepared source in FH7 is just a page of text (perhaps with tables, etc.) that you can fill in and of course that's easy to do, but what that doesn't do is generate the various facts and citations for you. What it also doesn't do is save you time by filling in many of these fields for you (e.g. AS will auto complete place/address, validate ages and dates, etc.). So if what you're asking is whether you could type all that data into the source text and then have AS generate the facts from that (effectively the reverse of what AS does) then the answer is no! There are an infinite number of prepared source templates that could be created in FH and AS would somehow need to understand all of them. The way AS does it is really the only practical way - you enter the data into an input form and then from that it can generate whatever 'prepared source' you need via the built in AS auto-text templates or ones that users create themselves.
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

There is another practical option. You could prepare the source/citation in FH, if that's your preference, and then use a Data Entry Assistant to generate the facts citations etc. They aren't as mature as AS, but may fit your need, and more will become available with time.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by BEJ »

The whole point of AS is that it 'prepares' the Source record and auto-adds the Citations for you.
Recording sources and record citations are two different operations, which I believe is the concept behind FH7's source-driven data entry. I can prepare a source. Then later create citations to that source.

Any way, I will continue to use Ancestral Sources to do both operations. It's just that I prefer the FH7 interface for sources. Thanks for the responses.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

There is another practical option. You could prepare the source/citation in FH, if that's your preference, and then use a Data Entry Assistant to generate the facts citations etc. They aren't as mature as AS, but may fit your need, and more will become available with time.
I said "There are an infinite number of prepared source templates that could be created in FH and AS would somehow need to understand all of them. The way AS does it is really the only practical way" - I'm fairly sure that DEAs can't just automatically work with any of the infinite possible text template thrown at it without doing some technical work.
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

BEJ wrote: 06 May 2021 13:49 Recording sources and record citations are two different operations, which I believe is the concept behind FH7's source-driven data entry. I can prepare a source. Then later create citations to that source.
Yep that's the FH way so if you like working that way, do it that way and don't use AS. The AS concept is that the process can be carried out more quickly and consistently by creating the source, citations, linking the image and creating the facts at the same time.
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by BEJ »

Thanks, Nick. The functionality of AS outweighs my preference for the FH7 interface.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

I'm fairly sure that DEAs can't just automatically work with any of the infinite possible text template thrown at it without doing some technical work.
I'm writing DEAs that will work with any template -- they'll look to see if there are any 'likely' field values for name date place address etc and use those if found, otherwise the user can enter them.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by NickWalker »

Sounds great. So it isn't practical yet but one day you'll be able to ditch AS and use the DEAs instead.
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Re: FH7 Custom Census Source Templates

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Within the next month or so, Nick :D

Except AS will always offer more options -- I'm aiming to support the most 'usual' ways of working but not every way of working. And people used to AS have no reason to switch, unless they like to prepare their citation in FH first.
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