* Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

AS allows faster and more convenient creation of source records for Family Historian.
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MickRalph
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Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by MickRalph » 06 Jan 2020 14:13

I have been entering some Scottish Birth Certificates where I had previously entered a birth fact in FH6. In each case I entered the father as the informant for the registration of the birth. I now find that when I save the record in AS, it creates an individual fact for the father (as I expected), replacing the original timeline fact. However, the new fact is just labelled "Birth", rather then "Birth of son/daughter xxx". The sentence associated with the fact correctly shows the name of the child, but surely it would be better if the name of the child appeared in the fact title (as, of course, it still does for the mother's timeline fact).

Is it possible to alter the template to achieve this, or have I missed something?

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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 06 Jan 2020 15:21

I guess the informant is being added as a Fact Witness to the Birth Event and has a blue arrow in the Facts tab.
Strictly speaking that is not an Individual Fact and will not appear in most Reports, and just in Narrative Reports.

AS does not explain that you need to customise the Fact Witness Role of Informant for the Birth Event.
You need to use Tools > Fact Types and Edit the Birth definition Roles options as explained in Knowledge Base > Ancestral Sources > Family Historian Birth & Death Informant Witness Role.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by MickRalph » 06 Jan 2020 21:58

Thanks very much for the guidance, Mike. I have a feeling I should have found these articles for myself. I will experiment to work out what I want to do, because, as one of the articles says, the date of registration is different from the date of birth and at a different location. Hence, a custom event may be better (if it is needed at all).

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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 17 Jan 2020 11:01

I'd like to take this topic a bit further. I've discovered that I have an unknown (but significant) number of these "Birth", "Death" etc entries in my project.

Having looked at Knowledge Base > Family Historian Birth & Death Informant Witness Role > Introduction & Birth of son not recorded (15297), I'm happy that I understand the actions I need for future entries for Informants.

But the same problem seems to apply for Witnesses. So can I just confirm that for every Witness role offered in AS, a matching role is required in FH. In my installation, AS has a total of 25 different Witness types across all the various data entry types, whereas FH only has 20. So I need to add the missing 5 roles. In addition, not all of the 20 that are present have the appropriate sentence texts available, so I need to edit those.

Finally, I will need to create a query (or several versions of the same query for each of Baptism, Birth etc and Informants) to identify all these erroneous Fact Witness entries for manual correction. That should be fun
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 17 Jan 2020 11:58

Yes Colin, the same requirement applies to every Fact Witness Role whether added by AS or manually by you.
There must be a matching Tools > Fact Types definition for each such Role, otherwise the Facts tab and Sentence will be displayed inappropriately.

It would be useful if you could identify the existing Role definitions with inappropriate Sentence Templates.

I am unclear as to why you need a Query to find those Fact Witness entries. What do you think needs manual correction?
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 17 Jan 2020 12:49

Thanks for clarification on the Roles.

I need to edit the past ones as they appear like this below
AS 1.jpg
AS 1.jpg (144.79 KiB) Viewed 2836 times
Although the Sentence is correct the labels above are confusing, when a properly inserted witness would look like this
AS 2.jpg
AS 2.jpg (53.1 KiB) Viewed 2836 times
I appreciate that one is an Informant, the other is a Witness, but the first example should surely be labelled as "Informant at Death", and not "Death".

Informant only appears as a Role in FH Birth Fact (on my install) on the Facts with AS input options.

As far as the Facts without Sentence Texts, I'll need to have a look to find them (unless I was imagining it!)
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 17 Jan 2020 13:14

Colin, your screenshots illustrate the problem perfectly, and they get corrected when the Role definitions are added.
That is the whole purpose of Tools > Fact Types that customises all the Fact and Role displays.

The AS Knowledge Base advice explains how both the Sentence and the Facts tab display is governed by the Tools > Fact Types definitions for the Fact Witness Roles.
See Knowledge Base > Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates that goes into more detail about both Fact and Fact Witness definitions and how they affect Facts tab and Sentences.

Like you, I found 20 AS Fact Roles that match the FH Fact Roles.
However, many of the AS Fact Roles as defined on the Further Info tab are only defaults, and can be changed to a Custom Event/Attribute, an Association, or a form of Note.

I found 10 AS Fact Roles that have no matching FH Fact Roles:
Birth - Informant, Registrant
Baptism - Rabbi
Death - Informant, Mourner, Minister, Priest, Rabbi
Burial - Rabbi
Cremation - Rabbi
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 17 Jan 2020 13:17

Sentence texts missing.

I suspect there are only a few, but I cannot be 100% sure I haven't edited them.

Birth Fact. I reset this (just now) to Installation Settings, and the code here is

Code: Select all

{individual} was born {date} {place} <({age})>
But there are Roles in FH for Mother, Father & Parent. I do suspect there may be good reasons for not adding a Sentence text in respect of these roles however, although I haven't checked them out in detail.

If I look at the Death Fact in FH, my code (I have not reset this one) is as follows.

Code: Select all

{individual} died <of {cause}> {date} <at {address}> {place}  {age}. <The death was witnessed by {role=witness}. >
I THINK that the only change I've made here is the addition of address, but I may be wrong. FH however has Roles showing for Minister as well as the Witness which has a text.

death.jpg
death.jpg (62.08 KiB) Viewed 2830 times
PS just as a thought, does AS adds any Roles to FH when AS is installed.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 17 Jan 2020 13:46

Excellent,
they get corrected when the Role definitions are added.
That is the whole purpose of Tools > Fact Types that customises all the Fact and Role displays.
I had not appreciated that existing Role definitions would change when I add the Role definition. I suspected that the "Role display" was not strictly a Role, so would not update.

I'll re-read that article on Templates.

I had spotted that I could use the Further Info tab to change. Not sure I want to at this stage. I didn't even count the Cremation options
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 17 Jan 2020 14:14

Answering your various questions...

No, installing AS has no effect on FH at all.
AS is not even designed to work exclusively with FH as it will operate with any GEDCOM file.

The Birth roles for Mother, Father & Parent are primarily placeholders for Source Citations that confirm those relationships. See Knowledge Base > Recording Credibility of Family Relationships and its link to Knowledge Base > Add Source Citations for Parent-Child Relationships as well as Spouse Relationships. Having associated Sentences would be superfluous as the relationships are already reported in other ways in Reports and Diagrams, etc.

In your Death definition screenshot I believe the Role of Minister was added by you.
That potentially impacts the Fact Sentence Template as well as the Role Witness Sentence Template and Advanced > Override Template similarly to the Role of Witness.
The Burial and Marriage facts have a comprehensive set of examples for most Roles.

I might finish up supplementing the AS KB advice to cover all these points.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 17 Jan 2020 14:33

Thanks for that extra info.

I'm possibly interested in having a go at "Contribute your Knowledge" to update this. Can I have a go and send it to you for correcting?

I won't be able to look at it till the middle of next week tho.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 17 Jan 2020 15:15

You are welcome to update the KB, but you don't send it to anyone, as it gets updated live online, just like Wikipedia.
Tell us here when you have finished the update and it can be reviewed.
At worst, we can easily revert it to its current state, as there is a full version history.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 17 Jan 2020 15:33

Yes I did realise that, but as it was a first attempt, I was hoping someone would look at it first
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 17 Jan 2020 16:14

Sorry, nobody but you can see it until you Save it for all to see.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 21 Jan 2020 15:30

I've done an update, but just realised I forgot to fill in details of the change. I assume that only a mod can alter that now. Sorry
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 21 Jan 2020 21:24

That is an impressive update for a first attempt.
Don't worry about the change details, they often get overlooked.
Anyway, there is a Tools > Old revisions > Show differences between selected revisions feature.

That you included a screenshot is excellent, although there are some details that need 'improvement'.

Now that the section has essentially two aspects, namely Birth & Death Informants and Associated Individuals,
I think it needs two headings at Headline Level 2.
Possibly there should be a single Define Fact Witness Role heading to avoid repeating essentially the same instructions and include the Facts Tab Format advice.

For the Associated Individuals there needs to be some more details about which Facts and Roles are involved.
The default installation Roles per Fact in AS and FH are more diverse than you suggest.
There are several more Roles in AS (Registrant, Mourner, Attender) and the defaults in FH vary from Fact to Fact.
e.g. Marriage & Death define Witness whereas Burial & Cremation do not. Also most do define Minister, Priest & Rabbi but Baptism omits Rabbi and Death omits them all.

We can go into more detail later.

We would be interested in your feedback on the Contribute Your Knowledge guide.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 22 Jan 2020 09:35

I think it needs two headings at Headline Level 2.
Agreed (and done).

Possibly there should be a single Define Fact Witness Role heading to avoid repeating essentially the same instructions and include the Facts Tab Format advice.
I did consider that, I also considered whether a totally new page should have been created, but I came to the conclusion that this was the best way to deal with it.

In FH, the Informant Role is treated similarly to say a Witness. In AS however they are completely different types of Witness, even appearing on different tabs, and Informant does not even appear in the list of Associated Individuals as it is dealt with elsewhere. Bearing in mind the KB article is aimed at non-experts, my feeling was that they two types would be better dealt with in this way.

The role of Informant is going to be utilised in the majority of cases by AS users who have a certificate (of some type) to capture from, which is presumably why they are using AS in the first place. Not having an equivalent Witness Role in FH produces a slightly unsatisfactory entry in the facts tab.

By contrast, the data for other Associated Individuals roles in AS is not always present, so their omission in FH does not have such an impact.

I therefore felt it important that instructions for Informants were retained in detail.

include the Facts Tab Format advice.
Again this was a deliberate choice to exclude it. Having an accurate Fact tab description is I believe an essential part of this topic. Making it pretty, is a bonus, and while copying that text exactly is obviously easy, edits beyond that are likely to be past the capabilities of "ordinary" users.

My own thoughts now are that the Fact Tab enhancements would actually be better as a separate page, as they are a "nice to have" bonus, whereas correcting the Informant role is really an important requirement. Fact Tab enhancements also potentially apply to a wide range of other Facts, so probably do merit a separate page.

For the Associated Individuals there needs to be some more details about which Facts and Roles are involved.
I would be quite happy that some more info is included but I wonder if full detail is required. My idea of giving an example was to highlight the issue, and leave the reader to explore, bearing in mind that some of these roles may not included in a typical death/birth/marriage certificate depending on what part of the world we are considering, but will be captured instead in FH separately, often from press articles, obits etc.

It may also be that an FH user has found a need to add additional roles - Witness for example - before trying out AS. Listing all 20 to 25 roles and their variations between the two products may just complicate the issue, and many users may never come across Rabbi for example, while others may never come across minister.
We would be interested in your feedback on the Contribute Your Knowledge guide.
I did read some of it first, looked (briefly) at Playground which I found of little use, and kept one of the reference pages open while I wrote my text. In fact I copied text in, as I wrote it in Word, and pasted it in.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 22 Jan 2020 11:29

I am happy with most of your updates and explanations.

But the headings I had in mind are:
  • Introduction
    Based on first two paragraphs but also mention Associated Individuals and Further Info tab
  • Birth & Death Informant
    Remainder of current Introduction
    • Define Informant Witness Role
      • Facts Tab Format
    • Other Considerations
      Applies specifically to Informants but not Associated Individuals
  • Associated Individuals
    Needs to mention that other options are available such as Custom Event/Attribute, Associated Person, and Notes
    • Define Fact Witness Role
  • Related Pages
The screenshot file needs a better filename such as deathinformantrole.jpg so the KB script becomes:
{{ deathinformantrole.jpg?500 |Facts Tab Death Informant Role}}
You could also reduce the height & width of the Facts tab in FH before taking the screenshot so it becomes smaller in the KB but the Death informant witness entry is actually larger so more visible.

In your Associated Individuals in Ancestral Sources the 2nd paragraph For example, ... implies that AS only defines Minister, Priest, Rabbi & Witness roles whereas there are 6 more, and that FH only defines Minister & Witness roles whereas most events do define Priest & Rabbi but NOT Witness as shown below.
Without going into specific details, the scenario of AS defining more Roles than FH needs better examples that also mention the Events involved, and that users can add their own Associated Individual Roles.
The full list of Further Info Associated Individual Roles is as follows where those in bold are defaults in FH:
Birth ~ Registrant
Baptism ~ Godparent, Minister, Priest, Rabbi
Marriage ~ Best man, Bridesmaid, Minister, Priest, Rabbi, Witness
Death ~ Mourner, Minister, Priest, Rabbi, Witness
Burial ~ Mourner, Minister, Priest, Rabbi, Witness, Attender
Cremation ~ Mourner, Minister, Priest, Rabbi, Witness, Attender

BTW: The Facts tab Override Template is also discussed in Knowledge Base > Default Fact Definitions and Knowledge Base > Family Historian Census Event for UK 1939 Register.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 23 Jan 2020 10:40

Updates done
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 23 Jan 2020 15:05

That looks very good, but I have made a few minor adjustments and corrections, mostly in the following:
Knowledge Base > Define Informant Witness Role adds Sentence Template option
Knowledge Base > Define Witness Role has several amendments.
Knowledge Base > Other Considerations corrected to refer to AS template editor
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by ColinMc » 23 Jan 2020 17:26

OK, like all that.

I've added a couple of words in the last para. I suspect most users will not have looked at that screen in AS, so just making clear it is an AS option, as the terms are FH ones.

Almost there?
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 23 Jan 2020 19:54

Yes, I think we are done.
Thank you for adding your insight on this topic. That is how the KB grows and improves.
If you discover anything else that needs improvement, then you now know how to tackle it.
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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by cynicalm » 10 Feb 2020 16:44

I have encountered the same problem, indeed I have stopped using AS for other than censuses. Shame, as it would be very useful.

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Re: Scottish Birth Certificate Fact Creation

Post by tatewise » 10 Feb 2020 18:21

Sorry, which particular aspect of the 'problem' with AS, and what workaround are you using in FH?

The 'problem' described here has a solution, which is the same in FH if you choose to use Fact Witnesses.

If referring to the Registration Informant then its Fact Witness Role can be disabled in the Tools > Options settings.
That leaves all the other useful AS features as they were before FH V6.
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