* Freeform citation in V7

[cwhermann]

A journey to discover what I didn't know that I didn't even know I didn't know!

[ColeValleyGirl]

In some ways you're fortunate -- if you've never learned another programming language, you won't have anything to unlearn for Lua.

[tatewise]

To answer your question about lumped Sources and their Citations see some of the earlier postings.

In the RM screenshots, the Citation details are the green section at the bottom.

In the FH screenshots, the Citation details are the lower Citation-specific Details section.

In the FH screenshot Mark posted yesterday, the Citation is the blue UDF under the Birth event for John SMITH.
Similar Citations will appear under other events for other people, but all with the same Source record link (e.g. Junk [1]).

Start a thread in the Plugin Discussions forum to get things started.

[Mark1834]

It’s what a fellow countryman of yours once described as an “Unknown Unknown”...

There’s a very worthwhile prize at the end of this, as a plugin that converts RM templated sources to FH templated sources would be really valuable for other migrants (plus existing ones that have all that data hidden in their databases, probably without even knowing it is still there). You’ll need to understand how templates and individual sources are connected in FH, but that would be needed anyway as most RM users would probably prefer to continue with templates rather than go back to plain vanilla generic sources.

[tatewise]

It is clear from the earlier screenshots on Thu 8th Apr 2021 15:57 that ...

1. Individual & Family and maybe other records can have Citations (SOUR tags) with templated fields (SOUR._TMPLT.FIELD) equivalent to FH Metafields and they are effectively Citations associated with a 'lumper' Source record.
2. Source records can have templated Metafields (SOUR._TMPLT.FIELD) and a unique Template Id (SOUR._TMPLT.TID)
3. I would also expect the GEDCOM to contain a Template Definition associated with that Template Id (TID) and equivalent to an FH Source Template. Does such data exist?

BTW: A plugin to convert RM templated source citations to FH format is being discussed in Import of RM7 Citations (19266) and the answer to that question above is crucial to that discussion.

[Mark1834]

Quick experiment in RM - the full source template descriptions are exported by RM in the GEDCOM. This comprises the template name, a unique ID (TID) and a bunch of stuff for each field defining its name, label on the form, data type (text, name or date, bit like FH), and whether it relates to the source or citation (again, just like FH).

Unfortunately, FH brings all the sources across ok, but discards the template definition. It seems exactly analogous to the way it handles the To-Do list and Research Logs - it save the stuff at the GEDCOM 1 and above level that it doesn't understand as UDFs, but if it is a level 0 tag, it is discarded completely.

Bottom line looks like the sources are all there ok, but not their underlying definitions (unless you re-process the GEDCOM file).

[tatewise]

It sounds like the conversion plugin must read the GEDCOM file (like the To-Do case) to extract those template definitions.
Otherwise, the FH Source Templates will just be named by the TID number, and all Metafields will be Text with no prompt.
Can you post a representative sample as I cannot produce those RM templates?
Curtis is going to have a steep learning curve

I'm also wondering whether my Export Gedcom File plugin would benefit from creating RM templated sources equivalent to FH templated sources. One complication might be the choice of TID numbers. Does RM have any conventions?

[cwhermann]

Here is template and the associated data entry screen created in RM, I have also attached and "equivalent" template and data entry for the same citation in FH. One issue I discovered is in formatting the Footnote, Short-Footnote and Bibliography. It appears FH does not allow source level fields in the Bibliography, when I created this, I got an error message for the DGS file number and Access dates. Notice neither show up in the FH created Bibliography.

[cwhermann]

Could only get 3 images in the post so the images of the RM generated template are in previous post. Here are the images of the "equivalent" in FH7.

[cwhermann]

Apologies -posted wrong image in the FH7 post. I posted the image of what the current import looks like in FH7.

[cwhermann]

Here us the citation input screen I created to match the RM created citation (and what I was hoping I would be able to create with the Plugin.

Although this is probably more related to the Import of RM7 Citations (19266) forum - at some point, I would want all the RM citations "converted" to an equivalent FH citation, but I would also need an equivalent FH7 template to enter sources going forward. Can all this be done in one Plugin?

Also, it may be easier to initially deal with the Free Form Citations. Unlike customized source templates which will have a different number of fields and field names, RM free-form citations are consistent and only have 4 fields: Footnote, Short Footnote, Bibliography, and Page Number.

[tatewise]

That is all useful information Curtis but not what I was asking for.

Your example Source Template has the Template Name: Deed Records_FS Images
The four Format citation templates have been completed.
Some Field definitions are Date type, all have a Prompt, and some have a Description.
Where will the Plugin get all those details?
They are not in any of the _TMPLT.FIELD details of the Citations and Sources.
It will be tedious for users to manually enter all that detail.

What we need is the RM Template definitions as they appear in the RM exported GEDCOM file.
The conversion Plugin will then read them and create the FH Source Templates from them.

Yes, one Plugin can cope with all the variant cases because they each have unique characteristics.

[Mark1834]

This is the (edited to strip out other irrelevant stuff) GEDCOM exported from RM for a simple one person database. I have created a custom template, as shown below, a single source from that template, and cited that (lumped) source separately for birth and death. FH imports everything but the template, which it discards.

Capture.PNG (19.14 KiB) Viewed 2678 times

[tatewise]

That looks good.
It provides a Name against the TID number, sets the type (Text, Date, etc) of each Field, together with a Hint/Prompt.
There is nothing to suggest Collection or Category or citation Formats so they will need to be defaults initially with manual updates.

[cwhermann]

Here a portion of the Ged file for the source shown in my previous post. Not sure if this helps, (or complicates things), but it contains additional info.
ABBR = the title of the the Source in RM (this is imported to the Short title field in FH7)
TITL = the text string portion of the Footnote, less the field codes (note FH7 imports this entire text string into the Title Field of the Source Record)
_SUBQ = Short Footnote text less field codes (not imported as far as I can tell)
_BIBL = Bibliography text less the field codes (not Imported as far as I can tell)
TID = Unique only to the template used to build the Source - e.g. my RM Ged file has 5 different Deed Source Records, each with a different name, but all with the same TID and 15 different Newspaper Sources Records, again each with a different name, but the same TID.

[tatewise]

No, we know all about that templated Source record structure and is my item 2. posted Sun 11th Apr 2021 13:14.
The _SUBQ and _BIBL fields are definitely imported and are shown in your own screenshot on Fri 9th Apr 2021 00:56.

Mark provided a GEDCOM with the Source Template structure which unfortunately is not imported and starts:
0 _STMPLT
1 TID 10000
1 NAME Mark's Custom Template
1 FIELD
2 NAME Field1
2 DISPLAY Field 1 (Text)
2 HINT Enter text data here
2 TYPE TEXT
2 ISDETAIL N

[cwhermann]

What shows up in the Footnote and Short Footnote of the FH citation entry window is the RM Footnote formatted text (which is imported from TITL line in the RM GEDCOM to the FH Title field) and the text from FH Where Within field (see below) The Bibliography is duplication of Footnote and Short Footnote without the text from the Where Within field.
The _SUBQ and _BIBL values (text string) from the RM GEDCOM are in the UDF File.

In the RM GEDCOM, the citation level fields and values show up connected to the event record.
1 EVEN
2 TYPE
2 DATE
2 PLAC
2 ADDR
2 @S223@ (master source record number)
3 PAGE (value is a text string of all the citation level template field values and imported to the FH Where Within field)
3_TMPLT
4 FIELD
5 NAME
5 VALUE
4 FIELD
5 NAME
5 VALUE
Repeating through all fields at citation level
3 DATA
4 TEXT - The text from source, if any.