* Wife marries Brother

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Alanmh5749
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Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 17 May 2020 13:30

Hi all, I hope someone can help, I'm researching a branch of my tree and have come up with the following problem.

In 1902 a Thomas Biddulph married a Harriet Venables. They had 6 or 7 children. I have all the information about this family.

Thomas died in 1911 and it would seem that Harriet his wife, married Thomas's brother, a William Joseph Biddulph.

Harriet and William had 7 or 8 children.

(The reason I am unsure about the exact amount of children for both husbands is that I have not yet worked out whether one child was conceived before or after Thomas died)

Now for my problem.
I have William's parents and siblings all connected in a diagram, but as I didn't find out that he married his brothers wife, and that he was Williams brother I didn't connect Thomas with their parents.
Consequently in the diagram William is connected to his parents and his siblings, but Thomas and his children are not.

Thomas and children are only connected to his wife Harriet.

How do I correct this and attach Thomas and his children to his parents and grandparents.

Hope that is plain enough to understand.

Kind regards and please everyone stay safe.

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tatewise
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 17 May 2020 14:39

Welcome to your first FHUG posting, Alan.

So all the people involved exist in your FH Project and you just want to link Thomas to his parents and thus become the brother of William.

Ensure William's parents are the Focus of the Focus Window with William and his siblings listed below.
Click the Add Child link below the siblings, choose Link Existing Record, select Thomas from the list, and click OK.

Thomas will be added to the bottom of the list of siblings, which is probably not his correct chronological position.
So he needs to be sorted into order as explained in Knowledge Base > Sorting Children, Spouses & Facts into Order which describes various ways to sort data chronologically and may report that you have other data out of sequence.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Alanmh5749
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 17 May 2020 18:58

Hi thanks Mike. I'd sort of done that before and got a load of coloured lines, which I have now hidden, so thank you for your help.
Problem now is that it still leaves me with 2 records on the same diagram for Harriet, one where she is connected to Thomas, and another one where she is connected to William.

Both brothers are in their right place and attached to their parents, but is there any way to get just the one Harriet as it would if she just had 2 husbands, ie one on each side of her box.

Kind regards again.

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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 17 May 2020 19:25

There should not be "a load of coloured lines" as that suggests a more complex relationship elsewhere that needs fixing.
There should be just one coloured ribbon linking the two instances of Harriet.

In some Diagrams, it can show Harriet with the brothers either side.
e.g. With Harriet or any of her direct ancestors as the Diagram Root.

However, any that show Thomas and William as brothers amongst their other siblings face a conflict.
If Thomas and William were either side of Harriet they would not be able to occupy their sibling position.
Also, it would be complex to show both the brother's ancestors and Harriet's ancestors especially if she has siblings too.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Alanmh5749
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 17 May 2020 20:44

Hi yes that makes sense, and its in line with what I was thinking. I'll just have to put up with the two records. There was just the one coloured line that I hid.

Thank you again for your help.

Kind regards.

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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 17 May 2020 21:24

Being pedantic, there are not two records for Harriet, just two boxes for her on the Diagram.
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Alanmh5749
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 17 May 2020 22:56

Hi, after you asked if it was just the one coloured connecting line I ticked the check for duplicates box and then realised Thomas and his children are on twice all connected with coloured lines.

I'm thinking that I will delete Thomas and his children and possibly Harriet and re-insert them starting with Thomas as a child to his parents and second husband to Harriet and then re-insert their children.

Whats your thoughts on that.

I'll leave his brother married to Harriet and their children.
I've also checked the Individual Records Window and there are only the one record for each person that is duplicated in the diagram.

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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 18 May 2020 09:31

If there is only one Individual record for each person, then deleting and reinserting is NOT the best solution.

What the coloured ribbons indicated are multiple relationships.
The Diagram option Check for Duplicates is somewhat misleading as it refers to duplicate relationships rather than individual records.

I suspect there may be more than one Family record linking Thomas, Harriet, and their Children.
If you focus on Thomas or Harriet in the Focus Window do they appear more than once?

Alternatively, if you focus on William and Harriet in the Focus Window are Thomas's children listed there?

Probably a screenshot of the Diagram with ribbons and the Focus Window for the couples will help.

The solution may involve merging two Family records.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Alanmh5749
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 18 May 2020 14:06

Hi, first let me say the tree I'm working on isn't my full tree, its a new project of one of my wife's cousins branch, there's only 54 people on it at the moment, and as its completely separate from my main tree any changes won't make any changes to my tree.

I've attached a photoshot of the tree.

The problem seems to be that when I added Thomas to his parents it duplicated him, his wife Harriet and all their children to the tree.
Obviously I can hide the coloured lines but the duplicate boxes on the tree still show.

In any other tree when I have added a second husband the record is on either side of the person who married the second husband, and their children are displayed underneath that couple.
I appreciate from your previous post that I may have to put up with the husband and wife as duplicates as Harriet married a brother, but I would like to stop the children being shown twice.

Once again thank you for your assistance.
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Screenshot 10.JPG
Screenshot 10.JPG (81.66 KiB) Viewed 900 times

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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 18 May 2020 14:35

Sorry Alan, but that photograph of your screen does not help much.
The resolution is very poor, it does not include the ends of the coloured ribbons, and too little of the tree is included.
I cannot make out anybody's names even if I zoom in, so can't see where Thomas and Harriet fit in.

Please follow the advice in Knowledge Base > Posting Topics about taking screenshots using the Windows Snipping Tool or Snip & Sketch.
Alternatively, save the Diagram as a PDF and attach that. i.e. Diagram > Save Diagram As > PDF Fle (.pdf)

What about the Focus Window? You have said nothing about what you found, or posted a screenshot.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Alanmh5749
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 19 May 2020 17:25

Sorry Mike, I'm not that technically computer literate when it comes to screenshots and the like, but I think I have saved and attached a Pdf copy, hope it is what you want to help me solve this problem.
When I did do a screenshot and tried to attach it said it was too big.
I'm looking at the Knowledge base link to see if I can sort the size so as to send it.

As regards to the focus window, again I rarely use that window, I prefer to do all my work in the diagram window, however I have looked at the focus window and can't see any duplicates other than Harriet, which I presume should be the case as she is married to both Thomas and later William.

So in the focus window for Thomas, Harriet is shown as his wife with their children.

Then if I change to William's focus window Harriet is shown as his wife and their children underneath.

Now in the Diagram, Thomas is duplicated twice, Harriet is duplicated twice and all their children are shown twice, and one set of grandchildren are duplicated. Presumably when I put other grandchildren in for Thomas and Harriet they will duplicate also.
It was only when I attached Thomas to his parents that the duplicates occurred in the diagram.
There are no duplicates in the Individual Records - Records Window.


Is that any help.
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Phillip Mitchell .pdf
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 19 May 2020 19:11

Thank you, Alan, the PDF is just what I needed.
Posting a screenshot sometimes needs some ingenuity to get the file size down, especially with complex Diagrams.
You can use the Expansion Buttons to hide unwanted branches, and use a photo-editor to reduce the resolution.
That is why I recommended a PDF, because they are usually high resolution with relatively small size.

Firstly, it is clear that there is NO duplication of any records, and only duplication of Diagram boxes.
The effects described below are quite normal for such internal family marriages.

The duplicate box coloured ribbons do display some interesting characteristics.
Depending on which person or couple you choose as the Diagram Root different boxes get duplicated.

Choose any ancestors of the brothers, or their siblings, or those sibling's descendants, then only Harriet is duplicated.

Choose one of the brothers, or their descendants, and then Harriet and the other brother's family get duplicated.
However, initially only Harriet & one brother are shown duplicated, and only one descendant branch is expanded.

So in all the above cases, there is only one coloured ribbon linking the duplicated boxes.

If the Expansion Button is used to expand the duplicated family, only sometimes do they get linked by coloured ribbons.
So it is only in these cases that you may see multiple coloured ribbons, but interestingly not always.
A workaround is to use the appropriate Expansion Button to collapse one of the duplicated branches.
Alternatively, you can Hide the duplicate brother where both brothers are either side of Harriet.

I realise it is somewhat untidy, but such internal family marriages are difficult to display satisfactorily.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 19 May 2020 21:37

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for your solution, just a couple of clicks of the mouse and it looks tons better.

What I did was close the expansion button just below the Thomas on the right side of the diagram, that hid the duplicate Thomas and Harriet's children, then right clicked Thomas and hid his duplicate box.

That just leaves Harriet with 2 boxes, one where it shows she is married to Thomas with their children, and the other where she is married to William. Which is right but not in the same line, but ok.

I can live with that, just one question if I may, is there any way to highlight the fact that both Harriet's are the same person. I suppose I can put a note in stating she is the same person. Or is there some other way you would suggest.

Once again thank you.

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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 19 May 2020 21:57

You only needed to right-click Thomas and choose Hide, as that will also hide his children.

The coloured ribbon linking the two Harriet boxes is the indication that they are the same person.

Another suggestion is to include the unique Record Id in every box to identify people.
But that will need a change to the Diagram Text Scheme via the Diagram > Options > Text tab and Edit button.

Is that a skill you wish to learn?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Alanmh5749
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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by Alanmh5749 » 20 May 2020 23:01

Hi Mike. Yes I knew all I had to do was right click on Thomas and hide, I just wanted to see what it looked like with just his children hidden.

I wasn't too keen on the coloured line, but have decided to leave it as the marker to show that its the same person. I may hide it at a later date and substitute it with a note.

Not sure about adding a unique Record Id at this stage, all the information has to be corroborated with birth, marriage certificates and family knowledge at the moment. When that's done I will see about adding a record Id.

For now thank you for all your assistance.

Best regards.

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Re: Wife marries Brother

Post by tatewise » 21 May 2020 09:28

Alan, I think you misunderstand what I meant by Record Id, which is sometimes shown in [square brackets].
I'm not talking about anything you add, but the unique record number assigned by FH to EVERY record.
In the Records Window on every tab there is a Record Id column showing that number that you cannot change.
It can be added to the Focus Window via Tools > Preferences > Focus Window and ticking Record Ids.
It is also shown in the Property Box on the All tab and usually in the Caption at the top.
Since it uniquely identifies each Individual record, adding it to the Diagram boxes identifies duplicates.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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