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Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 13 Jan 2020 23:21
by tatewise
In my initial posting in GEDCOM 5.5.1 Standard Release Nov 2019 (17327) I asked:
"So where will that put FH with respect to be 100% GEDCOM compliant?"
If Calico Pie would comprehensively answer that, then our future options might become clearer.
A comprehensive answer would deal with these discrepancies between 5.5 and 5.5.1 and how they will be handled.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 13 Jan 2020 23:50
by BobWard
I am still a little confused as well.

Just to clarify, are we talking about impacts to Note boxes for Facts, or, Note boxes for Citations? Sounds like it only impacts Citation Note boxes, but I would like to know for sure.

I have attached a screenshot showing the 2 boxes in question.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 14 Jan 2020 08:24
by Jane
Bob, neither in normal operation.

In the 5.5 spec you could also add sources to the notes. This could be done on any notes anywhere in FH, using the All tab.

The 5.5.1 spec does not allow you to add sources to notes so you would need to add them to the item the note is attached to. In normal practice in FH this only applies to Notes entered on the Notes tab directly, those with blue or red dots or a note record icon.

If FH adopts 5.5.1 in the next release, I suspect it will still support sources against notes using one method or another as the standard allows programs to add their own extensions and it's already announced that source links will be allowed within notes.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 14 Jan 2020 09:45
by tatewise
I'm not sure Jane saying "neither in normal operation" helps clarify things, as her next statement talks about "any notes".

Note fields themselves are NOT affected. You will still be able to use all the Note fields in 5.5.1 the same as now in 5.5.

What changes is the ability to add a Source Citation to a Note field, and that impacts every Note field.

It is only record level Note fields (those on the Main tab of most Property Boxes and on the Notes tab) that can easily have a Source Citation added via the yellow Sources For pane, and that is what most of this thread discusses.

The fact and citation Note fields (such as you highlighted) can only have Source Citations added via the All tab, so very few users would have done that.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 14 Jan 2020 11:59
by AdrianBruce
Bob - a picture is worth 1,000 words so...
Notes 2020-01-14 114417.jpg
Notes 2020-01-14 114417.jpg (87.07 KiB) Viewed 1853 times
The sort of Note that is the real problem under a correct implementation of 5.5.1 is the one starting "Constance's father..." (The "Lottie Cowsill" note is also affected)

It's on the Notes tab for an Individual (it could also be on the Note tab for a family), so it's not subsidiary to a fact or to a citation. Nor is it a free-standing Notes record (which can be shared).

You'll note that I have actually recorded a Source against this particular note to show that the information comes from Constance's marriage record. Why not record it against the chap in question? Because I don't tend to record parents of people who marry into my family - it just adds extra branches for people who I'm not going to research properly.

The problem with a correct implementation of 5.5.1 (with no extensions) is that I wouldn't be able to cite that source in the yellow pane as I have done. Sure, to answer others, I can get round recording the source in the future by writing it in free form text but what do I do about the ones that I already have? That's why I would hope that Calico Pie if, if, IF, they intend to go for 5.5.1 compatibility (and we have no reason to assume that they will) will do some sort of conjuring trick to not wipe out my citations at this level.

(As is said above, other types of Notes are also affected but very few people will, we believe, ever have entered data that will be affected. Note Records (Shared Notes) are not affected by the possible change.).

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 14 Jan 2020 22:59
by mezentia
I have quite a few notes like these that I use to place contextual information, for example, to help explain apparent discrepancies between a fact and the supporting source citation. This may occur, for example, in situations where name changes take place and a fact may relate to an individual with one name, but where the source citation might refer to the same individual, but using a different name.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 15 Jan 2020 10:01
by tatewise
mezentia, Notes in themselves are NOT a problem.
The potential problem is only if there is Source Citation linked directly to the Note as shown in Adrian's screenshot.
i.e. The Sources For pane says Note* or perhaps something like (<fact> Note*)

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 15 Jan 2020 14:11
by mezentia
Like this?
Citation note.JPG
Citation note.JPG (91.91 KiB) Viewed 1766 times
If there were source citations attached to the notes with the red dot or calendar icon, would they also be affected in the same way?

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 15 Jan 2020 14:26
by tatewise
Yes, like that for blue dot Individual record Notes, and red dot Family record Notes.
i.e. The Sources For: box ends with Note* or Note[n]* to show it is a Note field Citation.

But NOT the calendar icon Notes as in those cases the Sources For: pane shows the Fact Citation.
i.e. The Sources For: box doe NOT end with Note*.

Also NOT for yellow folder icon Note Record entries that are still allowed Sources For: Note Record citations in 5.5.1.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 15 Jan 2020 16:00
by mezentia
Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Now, as we all await the general availability of V7, it thus becomes of considerable interest to know if V7 conforms to the 5.5 or 5.5.1 standard. As V7 will offer the long anticipated text formatting capabilities, I for one will be eager to move to the new version as soon as possible. But, if V7 implements the 5.5.1 amendments to the NOTE structures, a solution to the problems discussed earlier is clearly needed.
best practice

The general guideline for obsolete features is that they should not be used. Applications should
not use obsolete features in the GEDCOM files they export. The general guideline for import
of obsolete features is that developers should not add support for obsolete features, but need
not remove any existing support either.
I found the above towards the beginning of the Release 5.5.1 standard which seems to imply that support for the 5.5 NOTE structure does not have to be removed.

The case for changing the definition of the NOTE structure is that it could lead to the creation of an infinite loop. However, in most standards definitions I have worked with (notably ODETTE and EDIFACT) this is often covered by defining a limit on the number of repetitions/recursions allowed, and although I have not studied the GEDCOM syntax in detail (life is too short) I would be surprised if a construct could not be made that allows notes a note to be added to a source citation, and where a limit to the degree of nesting of this is defined within the syntax. With de jure standards, one knows where representations may be made to influence changes to standards specifications, but in the case of a de facto standard, then this becomes less clear.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 15 Jan 2020 16:12
by tatewise
Where exactly did you find that quote from the Release 5.5.1 standard?
I have searched the PDF but cannot find that text.
BTW: I also search the 5.5.5 spec with no luck.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 15 Jan 2020 19:16
by mezentia
Mike, the quote is from page 6 of the file TFG551SAE Rev 1 2018-07-05.pdf downloaded from here:

https://www.tamurajones.net/GEDCOM551An ... tion.xhtml

and under the heading obsolete features. The quote is contained within a comment which gives me the feeling that this is not "offical" LDS guidance.

Re: Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1

Posted: 15 Jan 2020 19:27
by tatewise
Ah, but that is NOT the 5.5.1 Specification, but just the opinion of Tamura Jones and 7 technical reviewers in his Annotated Edition.

As the first box says:
annotation
This is the first annotation in this document. It's purpose is to show what annotations look like; a
box with light yellow background and a grey shadow, clearly distinct from the main text.

BTW: I think you posted the wrong link which should be:
https://www.tamurajones.net/DownloadGED ... tion.xhtml
which links to https://www.tamurajones.net/downloads/s ... AERev1.zip for actual download.