* Source help

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LornaCraig
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Re: Source help

Post by LornaCraig »

Re the baptism question: as you say, it is a subjective judgement and people will have different suggstions. Unlike Helen, I would say you have a single source (a single piece of paper) which is the birth certificate. It happens to have a note written on it giving details of the baptism. But I would not create a separate source for the baptism, just cite the birth certificate as the source for the baptism details. Then add a note to the baptism event explaining where the information came from, and perhaps set the Assessment level to Secondary. There is quite a variety of types of source for baptism information. Others include for example parish registers, notes written in family bibles, baptism certificates.

By the way you can easily change the name of a Source Type if you want to remove the word 'certificate' (although I'm not clear why you want to remove it). Use Tools > Work with Data > Source Types. Select the type you want to change and click Edit on the right.

If you have more questions about Ancestral Sources it would be best to start a new topic in the Ancestral Sources forum.
Lorna
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Re: Source help

Post by tatewise »

Just a few suggestions ~ Helen & Lorna beat me to it.

In AS Tools > Options > General settings how have you set Create name citations centre bottom?
... for all individuals involved in the entry should add citations to your Name for the items you mentioned.

For Birth Certificates the Main Info tab should record the Place of birth not registration.
The registration details will only appear in the Auto Text From Source transcript and the district as part of the Publication Information derived from the Further Info tab Ref ID field.

There are ways of globally changing the Source Type values.
One of the easiest is Tools > Wok with Data > Source Types and then Edit any chosen value.
That will change the Source Type in every associated Source record.

I would treat the front and back of those Birth Certificates as two separate source documents.
One for Birth and one for Baptism.
Perhaps those baptism details should not be considered as Primary evidence.
I would try and find the Parish Baptism Register entry as more formal evidence.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Wow Helen, so many questions so little time :lol: :lol: . I did enter the informants information, I just meant it added the wrong place again and I had to go in and change it again. Re the dilemma I did treat both sides as different, I just wondered because technically it was still a birth certificate. I never noticed the tick box for name citations first time, so that is solved.

I have checked through FH after adding my other daughter and everything is added as I would have thought, I changed the place of registration as you suggested before I saved it and once I looked through all the citations added, it has now added the place of registration to my occupation another assumption to change now.

Looks like I will have to spend more time with Getting the Most From Family Historian :lol: . Another quick question for everyone, has anyone ever took a Birth, Marriage, Death Cert and Census and filled it in to FH and taken a few screen shots for peeps to see exactly what information should go where and how. I know it can be subjective but a 'starter for 10' would be good for beginners to FH. I did pick up a little booklet from My History called 'Where to Record It in Family Historian' and that gives you clear information about what goes where (in the authors eyes) but not how best to do it. Title, short title, Author, Publication Information, Notes in sources. what goes where, why how and what use it is. Just in case this information is already on here or some other site that someone could point me towards. Again just so that I enter my information into FH in the main way that it was intended.
William

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ColeValleyGirl
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Re: Source help

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Have you looked in the Knowledge Base for your starter for 10? how_to:adding_bmd_data#adding_birth_marriage_and_death_information|> Adding Birth, Marriage, and Death Information
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Helen, I did look and read through these and watched the video, I more meant, what is a 'short title', what information would you put in it and what is it used for. The same with the other things like 'Author' who is this Me, the Registrar or someone else. This was why I was wondering if anyone had put up a certificate and then filled in the information that should/could go in these area's and what the more obscure of them were actually there for and how you would use them. No point in putting in a short title if it there was no use for it and really no point in it being there in the first place, if you get what I mean. I just feel when reading some thing in Getting The most... 'If something doesn't seem relevant don't use it' is a bit vague about why it is actually there in the first place. Surely if you write the book and develop the software, saying why wouldn't be hard. That last sentence was not aimed at anyone on the forum, I just thought I can't be the only one thinking what information would ever go in this box and more to the point am I not doing something I should be doing.
William

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tatewise
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Re: Source help

Post by tatewise »

See all the sections in how_to:index#recording_facts_and_sources|> Recording Facts and Sources and the ancestralsources:index#user_guide|> Ancestral Sources > User Guide tutorials.

In glossary:sources|> Source Records which is one of the key topics in how_to:key_features_for_newcomers|> Key Features for Newcomers it says near the beginning:
A source has a Title, for example 'Birth Certificate of James Smith 15th Aug 1873' or 'Memories of Joanne Philips' and may also be given a Short Title if need be to help with filing or finding information more easily if the actual title of the source is very long.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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ColeValleyGirl
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Re: Source help

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

There are as many different ways of using the fields in a Source record as there are users.

For example, I only use some of the available fields:
  • The Short Title, to let me find things easily in FH -- something like Birth 1849 England Worcestershire Kidderminster, Joe Jones
  • Type -- again as a finding aid, and to help with some queries
  • The Long Title, which I use to construct an 'Evidence Explained' compliant citation that includes all the details that other people put in the other fields. (To be honest, my citations aren't full compliant but they're as good as I can make them).
  • Source from Text -- a detailed transcription of the Source, to make it easier to consult the information in the source if necessary, and to publish the transcription (I never publish media images)
  • Note -- for any observation I want to record about the source or its contents -- "barely legible", "transcription translated from Welsh by XXX", "The Rev X was a curate at Y from 1814 to 1822 so although the Parish isn't identified it is very probable that the baptism took place in Y"
Other people will use all the fields in line with the Gedcom spec

You need to think about how you want to get the information out and why before deciding wht's best for you -- it isn't one-size fits all.
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Just read that gedcom spec, so putting the tree on hold and going to go away and have a long hard talk with myself about why I decided to change software and redo my family tree :lol: :lol:

No seriously thanks for that guys (and gals) it has helped a lot with getting my head around some of the parts of FH that I didn't get at first. So off to have another run through the beginners guides and get on with it again.
William

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ColeValleyGirl
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Re: Source help

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

If it helps, redoing my family tree has helped me find leads I'd previously overlooked and correct errors I hadn't spotted before.

Don't get too hung-up on the Gedcom spec -- it's only another way of doing things, and one that I don't always find useful in all its aspects. So for example, I ignore most of its guidance on Sources and Repositories, and happily create custom facts where they make sense to me. Your mileage will vary.
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

No spec hang ups here and even what little I have already redone I have noticed a few things about my wife's family that had previously gone unnoticed.
William

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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Hi all, I mentioned at the beginning about extra citations and thanks to your help found out that Auto Source Citations added 2 individuals and a Family automatically to my citations. My question is how do you do this if you are not using ASC or AS to input your data. Really just nosey about how as I added information individually myself and these never appeared in amongst my citations but when I used ASC to re input the same data there they were.
William

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Jane
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Re: Source help

Post by Jane »

You can simply use the drop down on the Source pane to select Whole record and add the source.
Jane
My Family History : My Photography "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Jane, is this before you enter the information or at anytime? I tried it and it added one individual but not the other individual or family
William

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tatewise
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Re: Source help

Post by tatewise »

William, the 'information' you want to add the Citation to must exist beforehand.

So for Individual records, the Individual must exist and be displayed before you can add a <whole record> Citation.

For a Family record, that must exist and is selected from the drop-down using Spouse (name): <whole record>.
( or you can navigate to display the Family record and select <whole record>. )

Likewise, for a Name or a Fact, it must exist before you can add the Citation.

Have you worked through Getting the Most From Family Historian where Chapter 12 Recording Your Sources introduces much of the above?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Hi Mike, I have worked my way through Getting The Most.. and have started a second full read. As I said I was just being nosey about how it got added if you didn't use ASC, especially if I was maybe using information from a census for a marriage and making a few assumptions from ages about the year. The marriage and all the other information may already be there when I got the Marriage Cert. and I was only adding the proper date and pasting the source into the other information so wouldn't us ASC. Please don't tell me that FH adds the Family, Individuals and whole record when I enter census information (Which it probably does and I am just babbling) as I haven't got as far as having to use my census information as I slowly redo my tree :lol: . Oh and thanks for all the information you have given so far, it has been a great help but that doesn't let you off the hook when I come across something else I get stuck with.

I seem to be saying this a lot but it may be time to put a hold on the tree makeover for a few weeks until I re read Getting The Most... . For anyone like myself starting out with FH the booklet from My History- Where to Record it in Family Historian is a very good start for where to input your information so that you continue to do it in a uniform manner. I say this as I noticed that when I imported my FTM tree into FH that some of the information was in the wrong place (I expected that as most software developers do things a bit different), but also that it was not in a uniform wrong place. Some of my information ended up in notes and some in text from source even though it was the same type of information that I had input over a few years. I can only presume that I started inputting it in one place in FTM and after a small break away from it, started to input the same information in a different place or different way. I plan to use the booklet from now on as I know then that I can look back anytime I have a break and put the source information into the same places and same way I did before. I know most information is self explanatory where it goes and that I could look at an old source or for that matter use AS (which is not going to happen soon), it is just a bit easier having a small booklet sitting next to you to reference.
William

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tatewise
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Re: Source help

Post by tatewise »

Yes, AS does as you expected; see ancestralsources:ancestral_sources_tutorial_entering_census_facts|> Ancestral Sources Tutorial ~ Enter Census Facts.

An advantage of using AS is that it ensures consistent entry of data for BMD & Census records, and those provide a model for other facts.

Where to Record It: In Family Historian 6 is not generally recommended as some of its advice is misleading and the FHUG have no knowledge of the author William Clegg.

It is recommended that you study all the topics in how_to:key_features_for_newcomers|> Key Features for Newcomers before committing too much data. I've lost count of how many users say they wished they had done that and thus avoided re-entering their data.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Just parked the tree up, put on a very large pot of tea and prepared myself for a lot of reading over the next few weeks. So now if my information is all ascue I will be blaming everyone else but myself :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Looks like you will be all be getting some R&R from me for a little while.
William

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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Mike, what advice is misleading in the William Clegg booklet? I ask because I would still like something like what is in the booklet and if I just made the corrections in the booklet I would be able to still use it or something like it for reference.
William

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tatewise
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Re: Source help

Post by tatewise »

Firstly, enter "William Clegg" including string quotes into the Search... box at the very top of this FHUG Forum page and check the entries (don't use the lower Search this forum/topic...).

I have not got a copy of his book, so the following are drawn from user postings.

He advises to put all location detail in the Address field and ignore the Place field, which inhibits the use of the Mapping Window.

He advises to use the citation Entry Date field for 'today's date', i.e. recording when you actually entered the citation into FH. That is contrary to the GEDCOM spec and FHUG advice, which say it should be the date of the original source document.

He suggests adding Media to the Individual record, but does not advise about adding source document Media to Citations or Source records.

He talks about putting source document references in the Source record Custom Id field rather than the Publication Information field.

He does not even mention Ancestral Sources, which is a major omission for anyone using FH.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Source help

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

The booklet was specially written for My History. William Clegg has also written a similar booklet for them on Family Tree Maker...
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

Hi

I had looked through some of the posts from the past and then looked through the booklet, this was what I found about linking images
FH Link.JPG
FH Link.JPG (228.12 KiB) Viewed 9773 times
and residence
FH Residence.JPG
FH Residence.JPG (228.86 KiB) Viewed 9773 times
an Custom ID
FH ID.JPG
FH ID.JPG (220.82 KiB) Viewed 9773 times
I am not looking for an argument about this, I was only asking as I had read the other posts and thought I was reading the booklet differently from them. As for the Entry date (which I agree he does say to add the day you enter it) I found it as an option in AS so presumed that it was one of the ways recommended for using that field.
This was the reason I asked else where on the forum if someone had made a list or put up information about where to put information into FH to help beginners with the program get it right. Which I guess is what William Clegg was trying to do for newbies to FTM and FH as I am quite sure adding the same information to these programs would be quite similar (he may have like myself and many others moved from FTM to FH). I am not saying it is the best way to do it I was just looking for a way to reference how to add information if I wasn't sure where to put something.
William

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tatewise
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Re: Source help

Post by tatewise »

OK, either some of the postings are mistaken, or his booklet has been modified over the years.

The advice on entering Place and Address is rather superficial as it makes no mention of using comma separators, or Tools > Work with Data, or the Map Window, unless they are covered elsewhere.

The advice on entering Author as the registration District and County is very unconventional !

The AS advice on its Help pages say:
Use Citation Entry Date: If this option is selected then the ****** date will be recorded in the GEDCOM entry date field in every ****** citation. Some users prefer to use this field to record the date that they entered the information into Ancestral Sources. This is not the intended use of this field as specified in the GEDCOM standard but the option is there for those users who choose to use it for this purpose.
I understand your desire for an introductory guide, and that is the intention of the FHUG [kb]|[/kb] together with Calico Pie documentation, but I accept that it probably needs improving. The difficulty with a product like FH is providing advice for newcomers that does not conflict with more advanced usage and leads on to that advanced usage without confusing the newcomer.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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GeneSniper
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Re: Source help

Post by GeneSniper »

I agree with you Mike about using Author for District and County, but if you actually think about it, it does make some sort of sense as you could class the author as the registrar and that is the Registry area they work in. I am not saying it is right, just that it does make a bit of sense using a bit of lateral thinking :D . I think as with most software, not having an exact standard to work with there will always be interpretations of how to fill in information and as is said in the quote you put up "Some users prefer to record the date they entered the information" although not the intended use, it is a way and this may have been the way that William Clegg was told to do it. He does mention putting the Registration date in the Publication Information eg Registered: 15 Nov 1965 which again makes a bit of sense. It would have made more sense to call the Entry Date - Registration Date and left no ambiguity about what to put in there.

You mention about my want for an introductory guide for inputting basic information, surely everyone putting in their information in a uniform manner to start with would make it easier for everyone once they get to have a more advanced knowledge of FH. I don't know what you mean by "more advanced usage" but I presume that it involves the information that has been put in to FH and would surely make life easier for those wanting to write plugins for the use of all, not just those who happen to put their information in in the same way as they have. Especially if they are the one who put the information in the wrong place to start with making there plugin only of use to them, no matter how good it would be.

I am not saying this is the job of FHUG, more that of Simon Orde's book which could incorporate a few more pages showing where basic BMD certificate information should be input and how, leaving no maybe here or this date if you want. That way if there is basic information that you want to put in to FH you know where to put it. I mean most of these certificates carry much the same information and most people will install it in the correct way and places, but for those wanting to input some of the information that doesn't carry a specific location. I suppose that the boat for this has really sailed as there will be so many people who have input the information in so many different ways that trying to normalise it would probably be impossible.
William

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tatewise
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Re: Source help

Post by tatewise »

I do sympathise with the problem faced by newcomers, but it is not easily resolved.

I think naming Entry Date as Registration Date is not particularly helpful, as most source data is not formally registered in the way that UK BMD Certificates are.

FH derives the field name from the GEDCOM spec:
ENTRY_RECORDING_DATE:= <DATE_VALUE>
The date that this event data was entered into the original source document.
As an example of "more advanced usage" consider Place and Address fields.
The simple advice is to simply put town & county in the Place field and house & street in the Address field.
But advanced users separate those details with commas and have a set number of comma separated parts in each field, so that Tools > Work with Data for Places and Addresses can manage the data more effectively to ensure the same places all use the same names. Users who want to geocode places to obtain Lat/Longitude via the Map Window must also consider adding country to the Place field and possibly even include some address data for more granular positioning. There are other refinements for handling different churches with a similar 'address' such as 'St.Mary, Church Road' but actually in different 'place' locations.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Source help

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

I sympathise as well, because there's a wealth of contradictory advice out there -- probably because there is no one true path!

I have a copy of Getting it Right: The definitive Guide to Recording Family History Accurately by Mary H. Slawson , 2002. It has 236 pages (so a bit longer than William Clegg's booklet) and so there are a lot of large dents in the walls of my study where I have thrown it across the room at times. It is not consistent as far as I know with any other guide, but that doesn't make it wrong... exactly.

However, there is a lot of good advice in it as well and if I had bought it when I was first starting out (rather than when I had some experience especially of data entry pitfalls) it would have has the virtue of encouraging consistency; and I still consult it for ideas on 'edge cases' occasionally, even if I go: nah -- that won't work for me/won't export well from FH/the wind is on the wrong quarter/winter has come and gone/whatever....

As I am a nerd I have ordered a copy of William Clegg's booklet and will (eventually -- don't hold your breath) post some thoughts on what I think of it. Eventually (when the next Ice Age arrives and I no longer need to weed the garden, and my own family history is complete back to Adam and Eve -- hah!) I might put some effort into updating the Knowledge Base where appropriate -- trying not to make it one person's thoughts but include some pros and cons of different approaches. It will of course be a collaborative effort, and I'll announce it somewhere on the forums to invite contributions and solicitations ('what would you like to have known when you started'?)
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