* White Margins on PDF saved charts

[tatewise]

Lorna, the position of the tree is unimportant because I'm using Diagram Save As > PDF File to fit into One Page.
Have you tried that PDF mode?
I know there may be alternatives, but all the PDF modes should work sensibly.

Something in our configuration must be different because that tree at 100% easily fits in an A4 Landscape page for me.

It also seems to be a matter of degree.
File > Print seems less susceptible to the problem than Diagram Save As > PDF File.
But move the tree nearer the bottom of the page, with Elizabeth and Patrick removed, and increase the Print tab Top margin.
Eventually you should get the symptoms in both PDF output modes.
What I found is that File > Print may not split the page in two, but it simply slices off the bottom edge of the PDF diagram.

[LornaCraig]

As I said in my post of 3.24 pm (UK time) ”I have not had any problem getting the Current Page Layout method or the File>Print method to work”. So when you asked if my diagrams were relatively square, etc, I assumed you were asking about those methods. I agree that there is a problem with the One Page method, but I wasn’t talking about that method.

As far as I can tell, the Current Page Layout method and the File>Print method always produce the same result, but the Current Page Layout method has the advantage of not needing to repeatedly re-set the printer to the FH PDF printer. (Although the File>Print method has the advantage of offering a Print Preview, as mentioned by Martin at Calico Pie).

Regarding the scaling, I expect that diagram would fit at 100% if I used a different text scheme. The boxes in my diagram are quite wide.

I agree that when using the File>Print method if you move the diagram nearer to the bottom of the page and increase the top margin you can get the the bottom of the diagram to be sliced off. That is the point of positioning the diagram sensibly in the page first.

[tatewise]

OK, understood, seems we are largely in agreement that there are bugs in some scenarios, but they may affect different users to slightly different degrees. I have reported the problems to Calico Pie as comprehensively as possible.

BTW: The Diagram > Options >Print tab and File > Print Setup both invoke the identical dialogue.
Whatever Print Margin settings I chose in them, I could not get any saved JPEG/PNG diagrams to have a white margin.

[philmcleod]

As far as positioning the chart on the page sensibly, my example in the attached "Standard Default Diagram" where it is in the middle of the page gives about 65 mm above and below the chart, see the print layout in Capture1. I would have thought that more than adequate to allow an increase in the top border by 30 mm to give 95 mm at top, chart 75 mm and 35 mm at bottom. However, that is what produces the split page as in Capture2a

[LornaCraig]

Phil,
Capture 2a is showing the diagram not only chopped off at the bottom but also offset to the right of the page, so I think you have not centred it either vertically or horizontally before printing.

Start with all the margins set to 0 on the Diagram Options Print tab. Now show page boundaries. The shape of the page should be A4. Position the diagram in the centre of the frame. Now on the Diagram Options Print tab set the top margin to 30mm. When you click OK you should see the shape of the frame on the screen change slightly, reducing in height. Now adjust the diagram so that it fits centrally in the new frame.

Now either (a) use Diagram>Save Diagram as > PDF file and select Use Current Page Layout
or (b) use File > Print setup and set the printer to Family Historian PDF , then File > Print (or File > Print Preview).

[philmcleod]

Lorna,
As I have said previously, the diagram IS centred by default so long as no margins are adjusted. A straight "save as pdf" automatically does this. See Capture1
Once you start adjusting the top margin it all goes weird, including putting unnecessary background across the whole page

[Jane]

Have you tried selecting "Shrink oversized pages" as shown on your HP printer options?

[LornaCraig]

Phil, We seem to be going round in circles here and must be talking at cross purposes somewhere.
I agree that if you save as PDF using the One Page method and then print that PDF on paper it will be automatically centred. And in the example you have shown because it is a very small diagram it has, in effect, got large white evenly spaced margins round it. These margins are not part of the PDF itself, they are just the area of paper not filled by the PDF.

But you started this topic because you don’t want even margins, you want one side to be larger than the other three. This means that you need to save the margins (or at least, one margin) within the PDF itself. This, incidentally, is what happens when you adjust margins in a report. Once the report is saved as PDF if it is then printed on paper the PDF itself is central on the paper. It just looks off-centre because the margins are within the PDF.

Unfortunately as we have established in this thread there are various reasons why trying to add margins when using the One Page method of creating the PDF won’t work. So you need to use a different method.

Don’t try to use a previously saved PDF. Start from scratch with a brand new diagram on the screen. Now in Diagram Options > Print tab start with all the margins set to 0, and make sure the orientation is set to what you require, Portrait or Landscape.

Now click OK. Now click the Show Page Boundaries button in the diagram toolbar. For the avoidance of doubt, that’s this one:

Capture.JPG (13.32 KiB) Viewed 11674 times

If it’s a very small diagram you may be lucky and find it is centred within a single page frame, but if not you will need to move the frame by left-clicking on a page corner and dragging the frame. You may also need to adjust the scale.

Now follow the steps in my previous post, i.e. use Diagram Options > Print tab to add your required margins, make any further movements or scaling adjustments needed, and create the PDF using either the Current Page Layout method or the FH PDF printer and File>Print.

If it is a small diagram there will be a large area of background stripes (whch is one reaon why I don't print the background) but they will not extend into the newly added margin, because the margin is now part of the PDF itself.

[philmcleod]

Lorna,
Exactly the same result can be achieved by simply leaving all defaults, saving as Diagram>Save Diagram As> pdf File and then simply put in the required margin into the Save dialog box. This adds the border to the pdf including the background as your method.
This was discussed right at the start of this discussion on 14 Mar at 16.58 & 17.26
FH Support have now stated that
It is VERY important to use the File>Print option. This will allow you to achieve the result. The Save As PDF is optimised to produce charts for sharing in PDF form rather than being print ready. Using File>Print is optimised for printing to "paper".
A great pity that this is not documented elsewhere or included in the FH Help.
Although I have tried this, there is still a lot of fiddling around to get each chart correct and centred as changing from portrait to landscape messes things up when you have a margin set.
I wish I had never started this topic as the simple answer is that there is no easy means of adjusting the pdf within the printed page, at least not with Adobe pdf Reader. As stated above, the only margin that can be added is within the pdf.
I am not going to redo 300 charts and then find there is another issue, so I will live with centred charts

[LornaCraig]

But you said yourself that you were getting strange results with that method. It was sometimes chopping the diagram up and was extending the background into the border. I'm afraid I don't understand why you are now saying that method produces "exactly the same results". Much of the discussion here has centred on the problems with that method.

[philmcleod]

Lorna,
Apologies if misunderstandings have arisen, but if you refer to Mike Tate's post of 14 Mar at 16.58 & my reply of 14 Mar 17.26 I thought it was established that whilst the chart moved down within the pdf the added margin increased the background size so as the complete pdf area was still in the centre of an A4 page and with a lot of unwanted background at the top.
What we were subsequently trying to achieve, or so I thought, was to create a margin that did not increase the background size. All the strange results were achieved when the margin within the Diagram Options>Print tab was modified or the chart was printed via File>Print method.
I think the bottom line is, that whilst you can increase a margin with various means in FH it will always be inside the pdf, whether that pdf is saved as a pdf or printed to a pdf. Printed to a pdf always fills the whole page with background. and is a lot more fiddly to do.
What seemingly is not possible is an easy means of adjusting a pdf within the printed page, at least not with Adobe pdf Reader. Adobe Reader automatically centres the pdf when auto portrait/landscape is set. There is means that I can find of adjusting that image position
I think that there are issues with the chart printing in FH and that the guidance is poor and explanation of the different methods somewhat lacking.

[tatewise]

I have to disagree with FH Support and agree with Phil that both File > Print and Diagram Save As > PDF File do not work correctly when the Print tab or File > Page Setup has white Margins set, AND the tree is small with significantly different height versus width.

[LornaCraig]

Mike, when you say Diagram Save As > PDF File do you mean Diagram Save As > PDF File > Use Current Page Layout or the One Page method?
And can you give an example using the FH Sample Project of a small diagram that you think is problematic in all methods, because I have not been able to find one. Thanks.

[tatewise]

I could not get one diagram that fails in both modes, but have two very similar ones that demonstrate the print modes failing.

With a standard FH Sample Project and default Diagram settings, produce a Descendant Diagram with Ian Stephen MUNRO as root, and Show Page Boundaries.
Ensure File > Print Setup is for Family Historian PDF and Landscape orientation.

Click on the expansion button to hide Elizabeth and Patrick MUNRO.
Use Movement Control Box to centre Tree and set Scale to 120% so it looks like this:

PrintPDFOnePage.png (45.05 KiB) Viewed 11636 times

Set File > Page Setup or Options > Print tab to Installation Settings and then set Top to 1" or 25mm.
Save Diagram As > PDF File in default One Page mode splits diagram horizontally in two, wherever positioned in page.
( If you don't get that effect then try a larger Top margin. )

Click on the expansion button to show Elizabeth and Patrick MUNRO.
Repeat the above PDF output and all is OK.
Now use Box & Bar to drag Elizabeth and Patrick MUNRO down to look like this:

PrintPDFCurrent.png (57.48 KiB) Viewed 11636 times

With File > Print Setup and File Page Setup as above, use File > Print and Elizabeth and Patrick MUNRO get sliced off the bottom of the PDF. Also Save Diagram As > PDF File with Use Current Page Layout is always identical. This is the FH Support recommended mode that should work correctly - NOT.

There is probably some jiggling with options that would get both modes to work, but it is somewhat unpredictable and annoying.
The strange thing is that larger diagrams seem to pose fewer problems.

[LornaCraig]

Mike, I have followed your method exactly and agree that the One Page method splits the diagram in two horizontally. I think we have all agreed that there are considerable problems with that method when trying to add margins.

However, try as I might I cannot replicate the second problem you describe. I think I have copied the Text Scheme, box dimensions, box shape and box shadow you are using. I have then moved Elizabeth and Patrick down as shown in your second screenshot:

Capture1.JPG (105.14 KiB) Viewed 11624 times

I have checked that the Print Setup and Page Setup are both as you describe. The File > Print method and the File> Save as PDF > Use current Page Layout method both produce what I would expext, namely a 1" white margin at the top and a fully intact diagram below it:

Capture2.JPG (84.56 KiB) Viewed 11624 times

[tatewise]

What happens if you try a larger Top margin?

What Diagram > Diagram Statistics for Height do you get for Top = 0, 1" 25mm, 2" 50mm ?
I get the increasing values 4.9" 124.3mm, 5.57" 141.2mm, 6.46" 163.3mm respectively.
It looks from your screenshots that your system does not exhibit those increases, whereas Phil and I do.

That all seems to be part of the mystery, and the symptoms may depend on other as yet unknown factors.
Only Calico Pie can throw any light on such behaviour by inspecting their FH code.

[LornaCraig]

Top 0": height (excluding margins) 5.22"
Top 1": 5.94"
Top 2": 6.89"

With a margin of 2" the diagram is split in the PDF, but it is also split in the screen view which shows it extending over two pages. I don't have time right now to run a test doing loads of small margin increments to see whether the screen view and the PDF result are precisely in sync as to when the diagram spreads over 2 pages, but that is my impression.

Anyway, the point is that if that happens I can always achieve a single A4 shaped PDF with unequal margins by moving or rescaling the diagram. I think this is what Calico Pie are saying, and I agree. And by customising the margins for each diagram it would be possible, though time consuming, to remove the excess areas of background stripes that Phil does't want, by making some of the margins very wide. (My own preference would be not to print the background at all).

However I can fully understand that Phil doesn't want to re-work several hundred diagrams that he has already saved using the One Page method, so unfortunately that won't be of any help to him!

[Jane]

Just a thought, can you check you don't have any margins set in the FH Nova Printer driver, just in Page Set up

[philmcleod]

If it helps, with my sample diagram, and it may not work for others, I have found that the following works the same for both options but not ideal or quick
Diagram>Save Diagram As>PDF File
FH PDF printer MUST be set as default before you start, including setting the orientation by guessing.
Modify margin in Diagram Options Print tab, but DO NOT change the orientation if it is not what you want. If you do it all goes strange.
In that case, for both methods, close the diagram and start again setting the orientation to what you want
When you then go to the PRINT tab to modify the margin you will not need to change the orientation.
The resultant chart then has an extra margin width of background AND a white margin of the same width. The background also covers the complete page, except the white marginI cannot get the white margin on its own.
File>Print
Similar to above, except the resultant chart does not have the extra margin width of background but does have white margin and the background over the whole of the rest of the page
It seems that the orientation gets messed up as the Diagram Options Print tab, always has the "save as default" box ticked hence the orientation there may not match what you have set the printer to.
As the setting used are apparently saved with every chart or chart type it means that every chart has to be done as an individual, going through a lengthy trial and error process.
For my charts I am keeping with what I have and any that creep into the binding margin I will have printed on larger paper

[LornaCraig]

@ Mike:
I forgot to say, I agree those diagram statistics are clearly wrong. The size of the diagram itself within the page doesn’t change at all. If you start with the A4 page boundary displayed on the screen and then set a margin at the top the height of the frame on the screen decreases, as expected, while the width remains constant. The diagram itself doesn’t change. I suppose it would be helpful if the screen continued to display the full A4 boundary with the margin marked inside it, but nevertheless ignoring the strange statistics I find that what you see is what you get. I still find this method works.

@ Jane:
No, I left the default setting for the PDF Nova printer, with Properties> Margins and Zoom set to the default Fit whole page to margins. and all margins set to 0.

@ Phil,
Yes, if you start with a previously saved chart it will have a previously saved orientation which might complicate things. That’s why in these experiments we have been starting with a brand new diagram. There is no guesswork involved. I wonder if some of your earlier problems arose from the fact that there was a conflict between the saved chart orientation and what you were seeing on screen.

[philmcleod]

Lorna,

My last post was based on doing a completely new chart the same as the one I was using as my example. Certainly changing orientation did have the effect I described. I got the impression from FH Support that even the default Standard Charts save the settings within them from the last time you used them, and "save as default" box is always ticked. Hence the orientation on the Diagram>options>print tab will be controlled by when it was last used. You seem to have to make sure that that is the same as the orientation you want BEFORE you open the chart. So if it was last used as portrait, or the default is portrait, and your chart requires landscape, you need to run the chart, change the setting, save the setting as default and then with the File>Print>FH PDF printer set up showing the orientation you require, you can re run the report and the orientation on the Print tab will agree.
I think the conclusion of this very long discussion, at least my view of it, is that setting up a chart for printing is not straightforward by any method and has a lot of potential issues which are not logical and certainly not explained or documented. It is perhaps OK to spend a day or two getting a single chart to appear correctly but not if you have loads of A4 charts. Diagram>Save Diagram As>PDF file may not be the process that FH intended for charts to be printed, but it is far simpler, so long as the size of the charts do not slip into any binding margin.

[LornaCraig]

Phil, in FH the terms diagram and chart have different meanings, although for most purposes the distinction doesn’t matter. A chart is what you get when you use Diagram > Save Diagram as > Family Historian Chart. It preserves all the settings including scaling, orientation, text scheme, etc. Once you have saved it you can open exactly the same chart again using View > Saved Charts. A diagram is what you get when you first open a brand new diagram on the screen. I understand that when you say you used a completely new ‘chart’ you probably mean a new diagram, and I agree that it will open with whatever settings were last used unless the Save as Default button had been unticked. This will apply not just to the orientation but the box style, text scheme, colour scheme etc.

As I said in one of my previous posts, I can fully understand that you don’t want to spend time re-working several hundred diagrams that you have already saved as charts or PDFs and I understand that you have decided to live with what you have got. However this discussion has raised some issues that still need to be resolved, as Mike still seems to get different results in some circumstances from what Calico Pie and I get. So it might drag on a bit, but don’t worry if you don’t want to remain involved, we’ll quite understand!

[philmcleod]

Lorna,
Yes I meant diagram and I agree that the are some strange issues and will continue to see where this eventually leads. As I said before, meaningful guidance step by step in FH Help would be very useful

[tatewise]

As far as this discussion goes there is no big difference between Diagrams, Charts, and also Diagram Types.
They all have a predefined set of Options:

• Diagrams use the Default Core Diagram settings in the Windows Registry
• Charts have the Option settings saved with them
• Diagram Types have the Option settings saved with them

One difference is that Charts also save the File > Print Setup mode, as well as the diagram root, multiple trees, etc.

I agree with some of the recent comments that there are many deficiencies in this area not only in symptoms but also documentation.

[tatewise]

Another difference I've spotted is that although File > Page Setup and Options > Print tab are almost identical, only the latter has the Save as default tick box. The former operates as if Save as default is ticked unconditionally, and thus affects all core Diagrams whether you want to or not.

@Lorna - Thank you for confirming the Diagram Statistics change when they should not, and that the page boundary Height shrinks as the Top or Bottom margin increases. The same issues operate on Width when Left or Right margins are adjusted. Also the PDF gets truncated on the right.

P.S. Something has now changed such that the PDF truncation is no longer occurring, I wish I knew what I did