* Using OS Map refernces in Map

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Gowermick
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Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 04 Feb 2018 08:55

I have just come across a very handy book 'A Parish Finder for England' by Graham Jaunay (ISBN0 9586481 7 4), which contains comprehensive details of over 20,000 parishes in England, with OS Map references for Locations.
e.g. Dent, Yorkshire (Nr Sedburgh) OS Ref: SD7086

Apart from on-line conversion sites, is there any way to utilise these references within Maps, to find the location of a Parish?

If one enters a Postcode for 'Location' to search, there is an underlying routine within FH (or Openstreetmap) which responds with a list of locations using that Postcode e.g. SA31HD lists Bishopston, Llanrhidian, Reynoldson etc

Is there a way for it to do the same with OS References?

Apart from above book, my Gazetteer also uses OS references, so it would be extremely useful to have a facility like this.

On the same subject, is it possible to get feedback for current cursor position on the MAP (e.g. lat/Lon, similar to Google Earth)?
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by jimlad68 » 04 Feb 2018 11:10

A very interesting topic, one I have grappled with for years in the walking/fell running arena.

I used to be a big adherent to "OS map refs" but once you start looking outside the UK it is of no use and certainly not a universal solution to anything, however 'out in the field' with a paper map, in the rain, it can make life simpler in the short term! It is a while since I looked at this, but one thing to be careful of is your 'standard', as the world is not round! choose it for best compatibility.

This is just one site that shows how complicated it can get https://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/ ... idref.html
To add insult to injury this from the OSM forum https://help.openstreetmap.org/question ... nstreetmap

I have no doubt that tatewise would have studied this when creating his map plugin.

I will follow this topic with interest!
Jim Orrell - researching: see - but probably out of date https://wcbeta.rootsweb.com/trees/15314 ... 1&letter=A

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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by brianlummis » 04 Feb 2018 11:19

As Mike (Tatewise) usually likes a challenge, can the Ordnance Survey software at https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/busine ... opers.html be incorporated into a Plugin? :)

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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 04 Feb 2018 11:37

Jim,
I appreciate the OS reference is not universal, but the neither are postcodes, yet they are catered for ( but presumably by OSM rather than FH)
Someone may know what is in OSM api, perhaps it already provides access to an appropriate converter, which can be utilised.
Heres hoping.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by TimTreeby » 04 Feb 2018 11:40

If you go to http://www.gazetteer.org.uk/index.php

They have over 50,000 entries. And they give OS Map Ref and the Latitude and Longitude as well.

You can also purchase for £15 a complete copy of the data in csv format.

They do allow downloading a demo version of the Data which is the first 1809 entries, which looks to be all the A's.

Below is a sample of the Data they give.
PlaceData.PNG
PlaceData.PNG (18.69 KiB) Viewed 3774 times

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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by tatewise » 04 Feb 2018 22:21

I've had a brief look at this, and the challenge offered by Brian, but cannot see any workable strategies to automate the process of converting OS Grid references to Lat/Longitude. Perhaps it would be an idea to suggest it to Calico Pie and maybe their geocoding partners could update their algorithm to detect OS Grid references much like they detect Post Codes, and similar to the way https://gridreferencefinder.com/ works.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by victor » 07 Feb 2018 17:22

Just a thought. How about asking OS Maps if they have date to include Lat and Long in the map references or at least provide a link.
I never use Post codes I just leave them for the postal services. These days if you post a letter from a place it doesn't always get that place postmark. e.g. letters posted in Newbury get the Swindon postmark. Newbury post codes start with RD (i.e. Reading)

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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 07 Feb 2018 19:15

Notwithstanding my original post, how about something for the wishlist? Can the Lat/Long reference be included in the status bar, when scrolling the cursor across the map. This is a facilty provided on Google Earth and would be just as usefull in FH, especially when googling an unknown parish, and being given the Lat/Long of its location!
Failing that, it would be nice to able to click on a location, and be given the option to create a Place for that location. Once done, the place will include the Lat/Long.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by tatewise » 07 Feb 2018 21:18

You are welcome to propose any new ideas on the New Wish List Requests forum.
Just be reasonably precise about what is wanted.
e.g. You suggest "Lat/Long reference be included in the status bar" but the Map Window has no status bar.
Your alternative is effectively 'reverse geocoding', i.e. converting a Lat/Long into a Place name.

OR I could just move this whole thread to the New Wish List Requests forum.
What do you think?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by mjashby » 07 Feb 2018 22:18

@Gowermick

Sorry, but I'm really struggling trying to understand how you envisage applying/using 'Parish Locations', especially as there is no single map reference system that can reasonably define a geographic area; and certainly not areas that have changed significantly over time.

The main reason I'm struggling with this concept might be best explained by a an example from my own research, e.g. I've undertaken a significant amount of research into three historic Yorkshire Parishes: Leeds (St. Peter), Wakefield (All Saints) and Dewsbury (St. Peter) The problem for me is that:

- the only logical geocode that could be attached to any 'Parish' would seem to be the precise location of the Parish Church (at the time of the event);
- Although all 3 of the Churches mentioned ar substantial and still exist, the Parish boundaries bear little relationship to later 19th century parish boundaries, nor to modern parish boundaries;
- many facts that are attributed to/referenced to a 'Parish' location have nothing whatsoever to do with the Parish Church and certainly didn't take place at the Church;
- many facts that were recorded in the 'central' Church's Parish Registers also did not take place there, but within distinct Chapelries several miles away.
- many religious events that occurred within the Parish boundaries were actually recorded in other 'Church' Documents/Registers, e.g. 'autonomous' Chapelries which maintained their own Registers, Non-Conformist Registers; and from July 1837 at Civil Registrar's premises etc.

My own practice for recording "Parish Events" is that, if the only evidence of a specific event indicates it happened at an unspecified place in "the Parish of Dewsbury, Yorkshire" then that is the 'Place' record I use and the 'best fit' geocode I then use is Dewsbury, Yorkshire (using the 'Standardized Place' name). Unfortunately, I can't really see how an added layer of mapping complexity would add any significant value, given that there is no way of displaying a Parish Map using modern geocoding. If I really wanted a method of analysing/displaying all events taking place within a Parish Boundary that would seem to require a specific customised Fact/Flag/Privatised Place element but, to be useful, that would then need to allow for a Parish Map to be displayed to show what was meant. That of course leads to another problem in that such maps, as far as I am aware, are all protected by Copyright.

That said I can see the ability to create a new "place" directly from the mapping facility could have potential benefits in some situations, but that would seem to require a fundamental design change in Family Historian, even if the Map Provider's API can/does support such possibilities, i.e. unused place names are currently automatically removed from the Family Historian datafile, so the creation process would need to preserve those Places records which, in turn, means there would need to be some other non-automatic method of cleaning up redundant Place Names.

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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 07 Feb 2018 22:28

Mike,
I was thinking about adding this as a wish list request, so I have no objection.
As for the display of Lat/Long at the cursor in a ‘status bar’, if it means adding a status bar to the map window so be it, but a floating window alongside the cursor would do as well.

As for adding a Place by Left/Right click of the mouse, I was thinking more along the lines of a new place item being created, with Lat/Long filled in, ready for user to add Place Name themselves, in their preferred manner. There would be no need for a reverse lookup, that me thinks would be asking too much :D

It is something I’ve always seen as a shortfall in FH, in that there is no way to add a new Place. One can only add a Place as a bye product of creating a fact with a new Place associated with it. Even when working with Places, there is no way to add a Place (nor delete a place even when they are no longer referenced). The only way to delete a Place it is to merge it with another!
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by AdrianBruce » 07 Feb 2018 22:34

Mike, I confess to being a little bit unsure what your underlying purposes is. You mention:
'A Parish Finder for England' by Graham Jaunay (ISBN0 9586481 7 4), which contains comprehensive details of over 20,000 parishes in England, with OS Map references for Locations. e.g. Dent, Yorkshire (Nr Sedburgh) OS Ref: SD7086
and then go on to want to use the OS Map Reference to locate the place on the maps. Why? Why not, in this case, use "Dent, Yorkshire" to locate the place on a map? (I am assuming that you do not want to do a bulk update of all parishes in the UK?) Or indeed, Wikipedia gives the latitude and longitude (54.276°N, 2.452°W - no doubt not the church, but so what?)
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by tatewise » 07 Feb 2018 22:36

@Mervyn suggests "unused place names are currently automatically removed from the Family Historian datafile".
They most definitely are NOT removed.
Place records with zero links are retained just like any other records with zero links such as Individual, Note, Source, Media.
The one exception is empty Family records with zero links.

@Gowermick ~ You can create new Place records just as you can any other record type.
i.e. Records Window > Places tab, right-click a blank area among records and choose New Place.

@Adrian ~ I too have some reservations about what is really required and is it really necessary?
If you know the Place name, then why not start with that rather than the OS Ref or Lat/Long.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by AdrianBruce » 07 Feb 2018 22:51

so I wrote this first....
Gowermick wrote:... Even when working with Places, there is no way to add a Place (nor delete a place even when they are no longer referenced). The only way to delete a Place it is to merge it with another!
Now, I'd certainly like to add unreferenced Places, if only to record the history of the higher level "nodes" above the place-name that I have....

Then, before hitting <send>, I read Mike T:
You can create new Place records just as you can any other record type.
i.e. Records Window > Places tab, right-click a blank area among records and choose New Place.
Oh bother.... I stand corrected... But honestly, that is poor User Interface design - everywhere else I go to menu item Add / entity-type.... The fact that it wasn't available for Places told me that they could only be added by generation via an event. So what did I know??? :?

Anyway, I've just deleted an unreferenced Place by highlighting it on the Place tab and hitting the Delete key....
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 07 Feb 2018 23:03

Adrian and Mike
I wish to find a place when I don’t know where it is, even when I know the name!
e.g. Family search may throw up possible christenings for someone, but unless you know the area well, you may have no idea which is the right one if any. OSM maps is not the best way of finding these Place, as it does tend to throw up wobblies and many Places go unrecognised.

Mike,
I wasn’t aware you could add Places as you suggested. I have looked hard, and never found this, perhaps too well hidden! :D

Just spotted Adrian’s post, and I’ve also learnt something new -deleting a Place by pressing delete key! Who’d have thought it. I’m with you though, on your comment about the user interface design.

Mike
Are these Add and Delete Place functions recent additions?
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 07 Feb 2018 23:57

Mike
I normally 'see' Places in either Maps or Working with Data, neither of which allow addition or deletion of a Place, why?

If in the focus window, I can Add or Delete people, (without resorting to the Records window) so why can't I Add or Delete Places in the Map window, defies logic! (As I rarely use Records>Places, it explains why I was unaware the facility to Add or Delete Places even existed!) :D

Mervyn,
You seem to be missing the point. I have a book or two that give a 6 digit OS map reference, such as SD3456, to locate a Place (or Parish). I just thought it would be convenient if I could make use FH map to locate them!
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by tatewise » 08 Feb 2018 00:51

The Records Window method for creating new unlinked records applies to all 9 tabs, excluding Headers.
It has always been that way, so nothing new.
Some record types can also be created via the Add menu, but Family, Submitter, Submission, Header & Place records cannot. So not every record type is the same.

The Knowledge Base > Delete Any Number of Records explains all the options of which the Delete key is just one.
It has always been that way, so nothing new.

Clearly, Individual records are far more significant than any other, so it is reasonable there should be many ways to mange them.

I accept that Place records are significant enough to warrant their own Add commands, and maybe Delete too, in much the same way as Media. FH has grown in many ways over the years. Most of the original UI still largely exists to maintain backward compatibility. Features have been bolted on without a major overhaul of the UI.

Originally (and still for all but Places in V6), the Tools > Work with Data dialogues do not operate on records, so Add and Remove would not be rational functions. So that history explains why they don't exist.

Also, Place names are usually discovered with respect to researching facts, and so it would be more natural to add them as part of adding the facts to the Project, and then investigate exactly where they are in Lat/Long terms. If the FH auto-geocoding does not find them, then use the Map Life Facts Plugin, or any other method. If you don't know where they are, then I don't see how you can manually locate them in the FH Map Window using the cursor. (I think this is Mervyn's point.)

However, the idea of using OS Grid Refs similar to Post Codes as the basis of an auto-geocode has some merit.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 08 Feb 2018 06:55

tatewise wrote: If you don't know where they are, then I don't see how you can manually locate them in the FH Map Window using the cursor.
Many many times I, and many others no doubt, have come across a place and do not know where it is, and is not recognised by the OSM map. This may be because it no longer exists, or has gone through a name change, too small ( e.g. a farm), or somehow not in the OSM database.

In these situations, I consult a Gazetteer, or Google, or even my iPad map. More often than not, I am just given its location by OS map reference, or Lat/Long. Thus having found the place, I then need to locate it manually on OSM maps, and the ability to use OS Map reference would help.

Then, once I’d located it, it would be nice to be able to right-click my mouse and add the place, and automatically give it the correct Lat/Long, i.e. from cursor position.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by tatewise » 08 Feb 2018 11:54

If you know its Place name and Lat/Long then create a new Place record (either via Places tab or via a Fact) and enter the Lat/Long directly into the Place record. It should be feasible to just Copy & Paste both the Place name and Lat/Long. i.e. Bypass the Map Window altogether.

I have already agreed that auto-geocoding from an OS Grid Ref would be a useful new feature to add to the Wish List, but don't hold your breath for its implementation.

However, in the meantime you will need to use online converters to turn an OS Grid Ref into Lat/Long and employ the same method as described above.

Alternatively, in many cases the Map Life Facts Plugin will auto-geocode from just the Place name and avoid consulting a Gazetteer, or Google, or iPad map. That Plugin can automatically update your Place records, and produce maps for FH Website pages.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 08 Feb 2018 12:55

tatewise wrote:However, in the meantime you will need to use online converters to turn an OS Grid Ref into Lat/Long and employ the same method as described above.
I am already doing that, and am currently creating all the sheet origins (i.e. xx0000) as places, with names like GBOS-xx0000, and plotting them directly onto the map. Once that’s done, I’ll use maps to mark their location with a distinctly coloured marker. After I’ve converted all xx0000’s, I’ll add the xx5050’s, to make the guesswork a little more accurate..

Then when I get a reference such as xx2478, I can go to place xx0000, then move East 24 Km and North 78Km, using the location of the other markers and scale as a guide, and hopefully arrive at the correct location.

When complete, I’ll post them, for anyone else interested.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by tatewise » 08 Feb 2018 13:12

That sounds a lot of work when it has already been done for you!
Why not use one of the many OS Grid Ref to Lat/Longitude converters I found by Google search:
https://gridreferencefinder.com/ this looks the most comprehensive
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/data/webservices/convertform.cfm
http://batlab.ucd.ie/gridref/
http://www.obliquity.com/astro/osgb.html
other converters are available!

Then just copy the Lat/Long directly into Place record without needing to jiggle around with Map Window.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 08 Feb 2018 13:48

Mike,
You may have misunderstood. I am already using an on-line converter. There are only about 60 sheets, so not a lot to do to get them into FH places. Once plotted, I can find all the new places I need within FH as they come up, without resorting to external converters.

I certainly don’t want to be using an external converter every time I come across a place I don’t know and only have the map reference as a guide! :D

NB know of any way to import Places from a list in a spreadsheet?
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by tatewise » 08 Feb 2018 14:04

To bulk import Places from a spreadsheet you would first save it as a CSV file, then use a Plugin involving the Knowledge Base > CSV Data Load (code snippet) and use the resulting table values to create Place records.
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by Gowermick » 08 Feb 2018 16:11

Mike,

I've added all xx0000 sheet reference locations, and it's looking promising. What I hadn't realised was that Lat/Long in decimal format, will paste straight into FH, which automatically converts it to Degree/Minutes/Seconds. Could have saved myself some time writing a conversion routine :lol:
For anyone interested, I have attached a csv, which lists each sheet and the map reference of its origin
Ordinance Survey Sheet Origins.csv
(2.23 KiB) Downloaded 36 times
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Re: Using OS Map refernces in Map

Post by LornaCraig » 08 Feb 2018 16:29

You can choose your preferred display format in Tools > Preferences > General tab > Latitude and Longitude Format.
Lorna

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