* Sources for the Drouin Collection

[ricklach]

The Drouin Collection is the goto source for French Canadian church records in North America. As a new user of FH (I used TMG for 30 years) I am having trouble with the rather imprecise method of recording sources and citations in FH. Elizabeth Shown Mill would be twirling in her grave if she saw the output format of FH citations. I am writing a book that includes all of the descendants of one individual and covers about 15 generations. Properly formatted citations are a big part of this book and I would like to know how to best produce them in FH. The Drouin collection is the source found in Ancestry.ca and a properly recorded citation should acknowledge the subject, the collection, the website (ancestry) and the specific details of the individual event. Here is an example: "Quebec, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1967," database and images, Ancestry (http://ancestry.ca: accessed 16 Feb 2015), baptismal act, Marie Marguerite Lapron dite Desfossez, 8 Jan 1705, folio 89, Civil Vital Register for 8 Jan 1705, Immaculée-Conception, cathédrale l´Assomption, Trois-Rivières, Saint-Maurice, Québec, Office of the Greffe, Trois-Rivières; imaged from microfilm identified as "Gabriel Drouin, comp. Drouin Collection. Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Institut Généalogique Drouin."

Some of the text is constant for every source and some is variable. Does anyone with extensive citation experience think I can produce a template in Ancestral Sources that will produce such an output in a report or book? I am open to all suggestions but I have about 23K sources and citations that follow this pattern and I do not want to have to do these citations for a third time.

[ColeValleyGirl]

It may not be a lot of help, but I use the Long title of a source for my full citation -- and even is ESM was dead (which she isn't), I don't think they'd make her twirl in her grave, although they're never going to be perfect. I've only ever been able construct simple items using AS -- anything complex, I create the citation elsewhere and paste it into the AS long title

If I have a number of complex citations to record that refer to a single recordset (such as the Drouin collection) or source type, I create a 'template source' in FH with a properly constructed citation as a long title with the variable text marked by included it in << >> and then clone that as often as necessary, editing the variable text each time.

(My citations for the Drouin collection are a little simpler because I accessed the records online at the Drouin Institute rather than via Ancestry.)

[SunnyLady]

Has ESM died since 17march ... Date of the last post on her site?

I am sure there is a way around what you want... but with the flexibility of FHn you can achieve her aim..."can others follow the trail'? I use long title for precise detail, and short title for quick ID which doesn't in my case print out

If its to fit an academic citation method then hopefully someone who is more expert can sort out a precise way on FHn... but I also wonder if you asked ESM herself what she would suggest for the fields offered for sources in FHn?

[tatewise]

May I correct a possible misunderstanding revealed by Rick's posting.
Ancestral Sources can only create details for FH fields in formats allowed by FH.
AS has no data or formatting capability beyond what can be done within FH.

AS does NOT currently support all the Source Citation fields available.
e.g. The Source record Author and Custom Id fields are omitted.

You could create labelled Note paragraphs to act as meta-fields, but AS does NOT offer Templates for the Note field in the same way it offers Templates for the Text field.

Also don't overlook the Repository details that can record common reference details shared by multiple Source records.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Mike,

FH standard fields do not allow the precision of an ESM-style citation, so even if AS supported all the fields, it wouldn't do the job requested.

The only way I've found around it (as already documented) is either to create the citation elsewhere and paste it into the long source title, or to create 'template' sources in FH (or copy existing sources that have the right format). Using the long title is preferred to using a note because reports can be simply configured to display the long title in the list of citations.

And of course, you can't get italic formatting in FH as it doesn't support text formatting, so you'll never get a fully-compliant ESM-style citation; however, as SunnyLady has said you can achieve her aim albeit without the formatting. It just takes a lot of work.

[tatewise]

Yes, Helen you confirm, perhaps more explicitly, exactly what I was trying to say.

Can you use the AS > Tools > Options > **** - method 1 > Method 1 Title Template and Method 1 Short Title Template?

What prevents you pasting the citation details into AS fields such as Ref ID and Other Info that can be included in those Templates, or even paste directly into the Title box near the top of the window exactly as you would in the FH Title box.

[ColeValleyGirl]

An example might help, Mike -- and this is a simple one.

My AS templates for a census are:

Title {OTHER}

(I cut and paste the full citation into here -- you have to use this method as AS clears the Long Title when you make some changes -- I've reported this to Nick at viewtopic.php?f=34&t=14283#)

Short Title {SOURCETYPE} {YEAR} {PLACE.SHORT} {KEYPERSON}

An example census long title (this is what is included in all my reports) as a result is:

1901 census of Wales, Glamorgan, Merthyr Tydfil, Henry Roberts; digital image, Findmypast (http://www.findmypast.co.uk : accessed 21 September 2016); citing Class: RG13; Piece: 5032; Folio: 54; Page: 26

and the short title (only used as a quick finding aid for me inside FH):

Census 1901 Wales Merthyr Tydfil Henry Roberts

You might be able to construct some of this with a more complex template, but you'll have to find ways to construct the "digital image, Findmypast (http://www.findmypast.co.uk : accessed 21 September 2016); " element every time -- accessed date will change, as will format of the record and website/other place accessed).

Things get even harder when you're dealing with a 'Baptism'. I (and other ESM-style citers) need a variety of templates corresponding to different source type and methods of access - PR/BT which could be consulted physically/online database and images/as a transcription -- and there are loads more permutations, even before we get into including the 'source of the source' as well as the 'source'). AS just can't handle this except by constructing huge sections of the citation externally and including it as {OTHER} and once you're doing that IMO you might as well just do the whole thing externally and put it all in {OTHER}.

(To those who know ESM's standards I'm not holding my citations up as an exemplar, just illustrating the problems).

[tatewise]

Ah! I had forgotten about that snag with Title.

I guess a Title Template for Census could be:
{YEAR} census of {PLACE}, {KEYPERSON}; digital image, {OTHER}
and that reduces the amount of pasting into Other Info field.

If other source types have variable Title formats then the Template does not help.

[ColeValleyGirl]

I wonder if a variant on the Add Source from Template plugin (http://www.family-historian.co.uk/plugi ... try?id=752) might be useful -- one that constructed a Citation using data entry against a chosen template and made the result available for copying elsewhere, such as into AS; or optionally created a source with the Citation as its Long Title. (You wouldn't want to automatically create the source record if you're using AS Method 1.)

Even better if you could export/import citation templates so that people didn't have to duplicate the effort that others have put in to creating them.

[tatewise]

See Plugin: Add Source From Template (14258) that has an Add Source From Global Template variant attachment.
That holds each Template in C:\ProgramData\Calico Pie\Family Historian\Plugin Data\Add Source From Global Template.dat\ folder in the same way the Add Source From Template Plugin saves its Templates in the Project's ...\Plugin Data\Add Source From Template.dat\ folder. Each Template is a separate .dat plain text file that could easily be exported/imported.
Not sure I understand the implications of the Citation ideas.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Mike,

I was thinking that there would be a single display field "Citation" to be constructed using the template prompting mechanism, rather than constructing all the Source fields.

When data entry was complete, rather than save the source, it would display the constructed citation for copy-and-paste to wherever it's wanted and (optionally) to use to create a source.

However, simplest change might be to leave the plugin essentially as it is (handling all source fields), just with the addition of a 'Display' step to show the results (for checking and/or cutting and pasting elsewhere) before an optional Save step. This would have the added flexibility the users could choose to put their citation in the Long Title, in the Custom Id, in a note or wherever suits their method of working).

[tatewise]

So all that is really needed is a new Show Source button alongside the Add Source button.
In Show mode it would become an Edit Source button to return to the original Edit mode.
Then you could toggle back and forth until happy, and either copy & paste or use Add Source.

Incorporated with the change could be a Project/Global option to use Templates per Project or Global to all Projects.

Also Export and Import buttons could be added to support up/download of Templates.

I wonder if Author Shelley Crawford could be persuaded to make the changes, with a little help from me if necessary?

[ColeValleyGirl]

That sounds spot on, Mike. I'll contact Shelley via the plugin store and ask if she'd be willing.

[Shelley]

I like the ideas you've suggested. I can't promise an immediate turn around but I'm very happy to make the changes.
Thanks Mike for the offer of assistance, I may need to call on you. I'll see how I go.

[tatewise]

Thanks Shelley.
I suggest you start a new thread in the Plugin Discussions Forum for the Add Source From Template Plugin and cross--refer to this thread.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Shelley, disregard if it is too much work, but it would be great to include the option to add a media record (named according to a template) and select a file to go with it.

Even more work -- rename a file to match the template.

Sorry.

[ricklach]

I started this thread two years ago and after finding that there was no immediate solution to the issue I abandoned FH and continued using TMG. To put my problem in context, I have approximately 100K people in my project and at least 2/3rds of them have the Drouin source and citation that I created in TMG to develop a meaningful citation. I have just finished my research on the first seven generations (that is everyone from one progenitor) and spent the last two years cleaning up all of my data, sources and citations for this group (I have 15 generations in total). This was all done with the idea of producing what I have called "The Encyclopedia ..." and I am in the process of editing this tome of approximately 1M words and 1.2K pages in length. Generation 8 alone will be approximately the same size. In the past week I re-installed FH thinking that I would complete my research for generation 8 and subsequent generations using FH because I do see the potential of the product. As one might expect, my imported sources and citations bear little resemblance to my TMG produced sources and citations. This then launched a train of thought on the whole source/citation issue. For example, the sources of the Drouin collection are the churches and civil registries that recorded or archived the materiel produced by the churches. I have read that the purpose of sources and citations are to provide a trail back to the original source of the data so that a person's research may be validated by other researchers. In the past, that required a trip to the archives or other source of the information. Today, much of the documentation is online. That got me to thinking - can I not simplify my citations much like they do with "citation generators" found everywhere on the web. Another issue that cropped-up was the fact that images from the Drouin Collection were the same images that were on Ancestry with identical image number references once you cracked the image code. In the interest of simplifying my sources and citations I reasoned that the source could be as simple as "The Drouin Institute" along with the specific name of their collection from whence the record came regardless of how I accessed the record (through Drouin or Ancestry or does anyone care?). So, the source would be: "Drouin Institute," Le LAFRANCE (Baptêmes, Mariages, Sépultures) for that particular collection (and perhaps an alternate if you Ancestry). All the rest of the data that goes into source can be boilerplate including the URL of the actual image (e.g.: https://www.genealogiequebec.com/Member ... te/2458464). The reader would have a textual representation of the image subject, location, date, actual source, plus comments on the record like who the spouse or parents or spouse was/were and anything else your heart desires. This meets the requirement of where can I find the data at some point in the future, and if you saved the image (like I have for every piece of evidence) how can I get to it to see it for myself. I believe that such an approach might simplify the issue and I solicit your thoughts on all issues before I launch off on this tangent. Simpler alternatives are welcomed as long as they speed-up the source/citation recording process and produce an acceptable output.

[AdrianBruce]

I'm not remotely familiar with the Drouin collection - other than the last few minutes I've spent looking at it on Ancestry! I've also no idea whether anything I say complicates or simplifies your methods.

But it seems to me that the Drouin Institute is not the Source - they only filmed it, which in my book is effectively publishing it. And the Ancestry Drouin Collection is where it's been published, surely? I would think it important to record whether you'd found it via the Ancestry or Drouin site because their indexes or coverages might be different. But again, that's a publication issue.

My Church of England baptisms look something like:
Long Title: entry for first surname, full date; Register of Baptisms date-range
Author: church (place, county)
Published: digital image in "Cheshire Diocese of Chester parish baptisms 1538-1911", FindMyPast

I download the image and attach it to the Source-Record - no URL because no guarantee it'll be constant and because I have faith (pause for hollow laughter) that the description can be used to find it by someone else.

So with idiotic bravado, I think I might record such an image in FH as:
Long Title: entry for Rene Artois, 1800 <not sure if Ancestry should have a full date here...>; Court-house copy of Register of Baptisms date-range <is there a date range for these or not?>
Author: Basilique Notre-Dame (Montréal, Québec)
Published: digital image in "Quebec, Canada, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1968" index and images, Ancestry, citing Drouin Collection (Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Institut Généalogique Drouin)

With probably idiotic faith, it seems to me that conveys the important things - who wrote the original, that these are the copies of the church's registers made for the court-house (well, that's what Ancestry says) and what collection it's come from. And yes, I'm deliberately pushing Drouin into the background as just being cited in the publication as the source because all they seem to have done is the filming... (All?!)

I have no idea if I've even come close to answering your questions but that's my thought, which may or may not be of use.

[AdrianBruce]

Sorry - I forgot to add that I'd envisage storing a dummy version of this as a Source Record in FH that I could copy and edit for each real source.

[ricklach]

Adrian, Thanks for your response. Mr. Gabriel Drouin of the now Drouin Institute actually is the source of the records, Ancestry uses them under license. Mr Drouin went to every church and court house and filmed all of the registers. One copy of actual archived records are held by the province and the originals are held by the Catholic churches - not that any of this solves my problem. I will admit that sources in FH baffle me at this point because I have only started to use FH. In TMG sources were a breeze to create and could be checked prior to committing them so that you could check the composition and style. I am trying to do that in FH but have not found the key just yet.

[ricklach]

As a matter of interest, can you modify the sentence structure of the source/citation output as used in reports?

[johnmorrisoniom]

Personally, I would treat the Drouin Institute as a repository

[AdrianBruce]

Quick thoughts which I might add to later...

... Mr. Gabriel Drouin of the now Drouin Institute actually is the source of the records, Ancestry uses them under license. Mr Drouin went to every church and court house and filmed all of the registers. ...

Indeed - but we might be getting potentially bogged down in different uses of the word "source". In genealogy, generally we worry about the source of the information, rather than the physical source of the document. So I'd contend that for me M. Drouin is something to do with the various stages of the publication. Even recording the Drouin Institute as the repository of the data isn't actually correct (for me) because the sources most of us consult are on Ancestry, i.e. Ancestry is the repository. Clearly you need to mention the Institute's crucial role and that's why I bundled it up into the publication section with that "citing Drouin Collection..." bit. The "citing" bit says where the stuff comes from.

... I will admit that sources in FH baffle me at this point because I have only started to use FH. In TMG sources were a breeze to create and could be checked prior to committing them so that you could check the composition and style. I am trying to do that in FH but have not found the key just yet.

As for checking, you need to create a source-record, then print preview a report to see what the citation looks like. Then go back and adjust. In other words, not sophisticated at all.

Sources in FH are much simpler / more primitive (delete to taste!) than anything in TMG (though I say that without ever using TMG, I'm simply assuming that the sophistication is comparable to stuff like Rootsmagic and FTM which I have dabbled in.) Fundamentally, the source data in FH is that for a book format, simply because that's what the GEDCOM standard is. Anything more sophisticated than that has to be done by mashing up stuff into the existing items (hence my mashing up stuff into the Publication data - though another tactic is to sacrifice something like the Custom Id (???not sure??) to contain a full citation). Further, the individual items that I mash up, once put into the Author or the Publication, etc, can't be extracted and re-ordered.

Other aspects to be considered are that FH only does the one citation format - that for the initial mention - it won't do second and subsequent citations in abbreviated forms, nor bibliographies.

can you modify the sentence structure of the source/citation output as used in reports?

Basically no - you can specify which items from the source-record are to be printed but not affect the order in the citation - again, the idea is that it's a book citation.

Frankly, the chances of reproducing a full-fat Shown-Mills citation format in FH, other than manually, are about zero and anyone who needs to conform to precise citation formats using FH is on a loser. On the other hand, if I just want to record where stuff comes from in a simple manner, it works fine.

[LornaCraig]

Adrian wrote:

So I'd contend that for me M. Drouin is something to do with the various stages of the publication. Even recording the Drouin Institute as the repository of the data isn't actually correct (for me) because the sources most of us consult are on Ancestry, i.e. Ancestry is the repository.

I'd go further and say that (under my personal approach) even Ancestry is not the repository but part of the publication process, literally making the information accessible to the public.

ricklach wrote:

Mr Drouin went to every church and court house and filmed all of the registers. One copy of actual archived records are held by the province and the originals are held by the Catholic churches

I regard the physical location of the original archived document as the repository, so the Catholic churches are the repositories of the original sources and the court houses are repositories of the copies which were made at the time or soon after the event.

[tatewise]

This whole thread definitely has nothing to do with this Ancestral Sources program forum.
But I'm not sure whether it belongs best in the FH General Usage forum or the Research forum?