* Upgrade to Win 10 and FH support

[goodwin2]

Here's my question - hopefully will get an answer from tatewise.

Yes, this IS very last minute but I have done quite a bit of research but need to make a decision within the next few hours re a free Windows 10 installation. Yes, I know, it is probably July 30 in the UK but not here yet.

I have 2 computers; a laptop on which I did install Windows 10. I don't use the laptop for my genealogy research - just general research on items of current interest. Have not been able to find a way get the Windows 7 classic overlay yet. And in general, do not like Windows 10.

My PC is a 2 year old Dell with Windows 8.1 and 7 Classic Shell which works JUST FINE. All my good stuff is on it with a Click Free "all computer" back up.

So my son's question to me was: if your FH program down the line seems to need Windows 10 to work properly and you don't do the free install before it ends - you will have to pay for it. Good question, and I hope tatewise can give me some advice here. I know he can't predict the strange things Microsoft may do but I'm sure he is more tuned into current trends in all the "cater to the young folks who want something new every day" and/or "being 6 steps ahead of anything Apple might do is number one incentive".

Thank goodness for tatewise and Jane!

Look forward to a quick answer and THANKS SO MUCH!

[Gowermick]

GSB,
What is your specific problem with Windows 10 (W10)? Having recently bought a new PC, it came with W10, and it seems MS has taken note of peoples complaints, and gone back to the old way of working with Window key method of opening programmes menus and shutting down PC. However, if you're happy with Windows7, and have access to W10 for those programs that need it, I'd stick with that - my mantra, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

FH runs quite happily on my new W10 PC, as does all my other software, but as for FH needing W10 in future, that, as you say is an unknown, but I'd be more worried about MS pulling the plug on Windows7 support, which in turn force FH to follow suit. MS cashflow relies on us upgrading, so to keep cashflow churning, they WILL pull plug eventually, to get us to upgrade. (Oh how I miss Office 97!)

Mike

[tatewise]

I have recently upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 10 and love it. It does everything I needed that was on Windows 7, and in much the same way, and runs faster on my ancient Dell desktop.

Upgrading from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 is usually very popular, because it restores a fully functional Start Menu with the best of both Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 features.
I have found no need for a Classic Shell, so what is wrong with the Start Menu or any other Windows 10 features from your perspective? (Maybe you have not discovered some of its tricks, such as right-click Start.)

The Windows API used by FH is very similar in all versions since Vista, so it seems unlikely that Calico Pie will cease support for any of them in the foreseeable future, but it is their decision not mine.

If you are reasonably computer literate, it is feasible to create an image backup of your Windows 8.1 system disk, upgrade to Windows 10 and create an image backup of that activated free installation, then revert to Windows 8.1. At any time in the future you can re-install from the Windows 10 image backup for free.

As an aside, Ancestral Sources is only tested on Windows 10 these days, and it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise from its author Nick Walker.

[Gowermick]

Mike,
Like your lateral thinking about making W10 backup then reverting for free later. Avoids the problem of not installing now, then being forced to pay at some later date - brilliant idea. I know reversion works, as I had to do it on a media PC, when W10 stopped TV component working.

Mike

[tatewise]

Not my later thinking but well documented online such as:
http://www.howtogeek.com/253901/get-win ... -prep-now/

[davidm_uk]

I use the free version of Macrium Reflect http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx and have found that it works very reliably. You should also use it to create a rescue disk (CD or usb drive) that you can boot your PC from should your OS get really broken such that it won't even load. That rescue disk can also be used to both create and restore images.

[goodwin2]

Thanks so much for your quick replies to my question. I have just spent an hour or so trying to get Classic Shell to work on my laptop that has Windows 10 -was an upgrade from Windows 7. It downloaded fine and indicated that it completed the install. After that it was just the little blue circle - circling. Uninstalled and reinstalled with the same result. So that's not going to happen on the laptop and I'm stuck with Windows 10. Initially I did get rid of Cortana and declined all the "apps", "accounts" that track your life story. But really, not happy.

With regard to the Start Menu being restored on a Windows 8.1 system when upgrading to Windows 10- that sounds fine BUT I have the Classic Shell on my 8.1 which was installed by a geek so if a reversion to 8.1 from 10 was needed I'd likely be back to the geek. Not sure that an image backup would actually put the Classic Shell back - you folks would know, I'm sure. Guess I'm just not prepared to take the chance that I'd be paddling through all of the STUFF that Windows 10 throws on the computer. As the other nice gentleman said - if it's not broke, don't fix it.

Good to hear that Calico Pie is not likely to do me in. I don't use Ancestral Sources so that doesn't factor in here.

Again - many thanks for the input and suggestions.

[tatewise]

Reverting back to Win 8.1 from Win 10 should restore everything exactly as it was, and certainly a disk image will do that because it is an exact replica of what is installed on disk.

You say you are really, not happy, but don't say exactly what you do not like about Windows 10.
Why do you feel the need for Classic Shell? I think the Start Menu is good.
Why get rid of Cortana? ~ It's only really the Start ~ Search function under a different name.
When you upgrade from Win 8.1 to Win 10 your Accounts stay exactly as they were before.
The Windows 10 App shortcuts can all be deleted from the Start Menu, which can easily be resized, customised, etc.
Right-click the Start button for many useful shortcuts similar to Win 7.
What STUFF do you think Windows 10 throws on your PC?
All versions of Windows put stuff on your PC you will never use ~ so what ~ don't use it.
There are loads of TV channels on my TV I don't like ~ so guess what ~ I don't watch them!
Have you seen our glossary:windows_10_upgrade_tips|> Windows 10 Upgrade Tips that offers advice about Privacy settings, etc.

[Jane]

I used to use "start menu" on windows 8 and 8.1 but don't bother for Windows 10 as the menu is pretty usable as it is.

[NickiP]

Finally upgraded my laptop and netbook to Win10 a couple of days ago and I don't find the Win10 Menu much different from Win7 or earlier, its quite customisable so can get it to work more like the earlier versions.

As for imaging a drive, I've been using Symantec System Recovery for a number of years, albeit having had to upgrade at each operating system upgrade (usually purchasing discounted OEM licences which were much cheaper) but it has served me well when migrating to new hardware and recovery. This time there are less opportunities to purchase so I shall be having a look at David's suggestion of Macrium Reflect because looks almost the same, just have to create the boot discs required for restore which with Symantec were part of the package. Price is much cheaper though.

[davidm_uk]

I had Classic Shell on both my Win7 Pro and my wife's W7 PCs. I updated both to the latest release (4.5.2c) before upgrading both PCs to W10, and they worked just fine, although I did have to tweak a few settings in Classic Shell to get back to the way I like my menus. I hated all those Apps plastered over the screen by W10, now they are just on the Start Menu like Programs. I like a clean desktop, just like when I worked at a real desk.

However it looks like the Anniversary update to W10, due out on the 2nd August is going to prevent you from turning some things off, Cortana and the Lock Screen and some "phone home" stuff for a start, and maybe more. Grrrrrrrrrrrr

And yes, restoring an image will get your disk back to where it was, including of course any email database files held in your C:\Users folder if you use an email client, so you will lose any emails that you've downloaded since the image was taken (unless you find your up-to-date email database and save it somewhere before you restore the image, then after the image restore put the newer database back in place of the old one! Same goes for any other data files kept on C:

(although Macrium does enable to mount an image as a disk drive and then use Windows Explorer to extract folders and files, so if you take an image of the new, now unwanted, system before doing the restore to get back to your old system, you can access any updated files that way, you just have to find them).

[davidm_uk]

@NickiP

Be sure to check out the differences between the free and paid for versions of Macrium Reflect, I've found that I can do everything I want with the free version (create rescue CD, save and restore images, file backups and restore), and the paid for versions start at £48 for a single license for the Home Edition.
http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

[tatewise]

Why bother with any other products?
Windows has perfectly good create disk image backup and create recovery disk options built in for free!

[NickiP]

Why bother with any other products?
Windows has perfectly good create disk image backup and create recovery disk options built in for free!

But you can't as far as I am aware do restore of individual files, only the whole disk. Hence the reason I use paid imaging software, albeit without annual maintenance so single purchase cost until upgrade required. In the past Windows own products haven't been as reliable as perhaps they are now. I know there is the "Previous Versions" option for individual files but it is reliant on using Windows backups to restore and as have had issues with Volume Shadow Copy in a corporate environment, I'm uninclined to rely on it at home.

@NickiP

Be sure to check out the differences between the free and paid for versions of Macrium Reflect, I've found that I can do everything I want with the free version (create rescue CD, save and restore images, file backups and restore), and the paid for versions start at £48 for a single license for the Home Edition.
http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

Yes I'd noticed that and the differences. We've got four PCs that could make use of the 4 licence option at £95 so not a bad price.

@davidm_uk Can you do individual file restores from within File Explorer with Macrium Free please? I got the impression it didn't do Item Level Recovery unless you purchased the Home Edition, or is the difference with Home you can just backup files and folders rather than the whole image? If its the latter, then the free edition will probably do all we need as that's pretty much what we've been doing with Symantec.

[tatewise]

You can restore individual files from Windows disk image backup. It is a VHD file that can be mounted and files accessed. Just Google for details.

In some Windows (at least 7 and 10) System Restore Points include file versions that can be restored via Previous Versions for files and folders.

So as I said, why use anything else?

[goodwin2]

Good discussion here. Re what David M. said about the upcoming anniversary update to Windows 10 and the things you will no longer be able to turn off. Just read a couple of articles about Windows 10 saying Microsoft is being sued here in the US and by another country for "coerced updates". Had I not opted to "choose updates" on this computer, Microsoft would have downloaded it in an update. I prefer to make my own decisions re what is on my computer.

Yes, I know you can turn off all the personal ads and other stuff that you don't want [takes a LOT of time, patience and know how] but I'm sure there are computer users out there who are even less technically sophisticated than I am. I didn't buy - or use - a computer to be a source of advertising revenue. Privacy and autonomy are REALLY important here.

Let Microsoft make big bucks - go for it - but don't do it by blanketing peoples computers with stuff they don't want - or worse yet - don't know what's on it. Nuff said!

Thanks again for all the input!

[davidm_uk]

@davidm_uk Can you do individual file restores from within File Explorer with Macrium Free please? I got the impression it didn't do Item Level Recovery unless you purchased the Home Edition, or is the difference with Home you can just backup files and folders rather than the whole image? If its the latter, then the free edition will probably do all we need as that's pretty much what we've been doing with Symantec.

You can do individual/multiple folder and file "restores" (maybe recovery would be a better term) from an image in the free version. Basically you use MR Free to mount the image as a drive then use File Explorer to view the image and copy any folders/files that you want. You need a paid version of MR to do conventional folder/file level backups and restores. I still use Acronis True Image for my folder/file scheduled backups and restores, it's an old version, v13 which W10 says is not compatible, but it is working fine, and others have found the same, so don't believe everything that W10 tells you!

[tatewise]

So MR Free does exactly what you can do with Windows by itself ~ mount the VHD image backup file and use File Explorer to explore individual folders and files.

In Windows 10, I have just doubled-checked the Restore previous versions option on right-click folder and file context menu, and it says Previous versions come from File History or from restore points.
But be aware though that by default in Windows 10 the System Restore Points feature is disabled.
See glossary:windows_10_upgrade_tips|> Windows 10 Upgrade Tips.
In particular to enable System Restore, right-click Start > System > System protection select drive C: and Configure > Turn on system protection and click OK.

[NickiP]

You can do individual/multiple folder and file "restores" (maybe recovery would be a better term) from an image in the free version. Basically you use MR Free to mount the image as a drive then use File Explorer to view the image and copy any folders/files that you want. You need a paid version of MR to do conventional folder/file level backups and restores. I still use Acronis True Image for my folder/file scheduled backups and restores, it's an old version, v13 which W10 says is not compatible, but it is working fine, and others have found the same, so don't believe everything that W10 tells you!

Thanks David, looks like the free version probably does all we're interested in, although it may be useful to actually start backing up folders regularly anyway.

So MR Free does exactly what you can do with Windows by itself ~ mount the VHD image backup file and use File Explorer to explore individual folders and files.

It may well do, but from past experience with Windows backup/shadow copy not working as expected, I'm rather uninclined to use it. Anyway, if it is so good, why do so many corporate entities use 3rd party software when they could save money using Microsoft's own version? The same can be said for their free security software compared to 3rd party products. Generally, the 3rd party products are generally better whatever Microsoft thinks.

But be aware though that by default in Windows 10 the System Restore Points feature is disabled.
See glossary:windows_10_upgrade_tips|> Windows 10 Upgrade Tips.
In particular to enable System Restore, right-click Start > System > System protection select drive C: and Configure > Turn on system protection and click OK.

The Win10 upgrade turns turns it off even if you had it enabled in Win7. You would have thought by now Microsoft would have changed it to enabled.

[tatewise]

NickiP wrote: Why do so many corporate entities use 3rd party software when they could save money using Microsoft's own version.

Corporate entities can't use free versions of 3rd party software, as it is often restricted to personal non-commercial use.
The paid for versions of 3rd party software often adds bells and whistles, ease of use, and features not in Windows.
But, in this thread I was comparing MR Free (This version is for non-commercial home use.) with the Windows free built-in feature of specifically disk image backup and individual folder & file recovery.

I believe that 3rd party software vendors offer free versions for personal use to tempt users to buy the paid for version ~ a form of advertising. The free versions often do add features not available in Windows but I was not discussing that.

[NickiP]

[ Corporate entities can't use free versions of 3rd party software, as it is often restricted to personal non-commercial use.
The paid for versions of 3rd party software often adds bells and whistles, ease of use, and features not in Windows.
But, in this thread I was comparing MR Free (This version is for non-commercial home use.) with the Windows free built-in feature of specifically disk image backup and individual folder & file recovery.

I believe that 3rd party software vendors offer free versions for personal use to tempt users to buy the paid for version ~ a form of advertising. The free versions often do add features not available in Windows but I was not discussing that.

I wasn't suggesting they did, I was suggesting that the Windows versions aren't as good as 3rd party software which is why most corporate entities use 3rd party software. And yes they probably do come with more bells and whistles than Microsoft's version, and better support, but my point was that from my own personal experience working in IT for over 17 years, I do not consider Microsoft's inbuilt versions as being as reliable as other 3rd party software. They may have improved over time but I'm not particularly inclined to give them a try again.

[deckie49]

Here is an interesting article by Woody Leonhard at Infoworld that offers some things to consider in making the decision whether to upgrade or not.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/297229 ... ws-10.html

[davidm_uk]

I found the article a little bit one sided, but that seems true of most of the online articles I've seen (on the positive or negative side). You need to read a lot of such stuff to get a more balaced view, and a lot of it is down to personal taste anyway. Maybe I can't turn Cortana off (I bet it won't be long before someone comes up with gag though) but I can just ignore it when I choose (don't tell the Mrs I said that ).

I stayed with Win 7 until a few weeks ago, just to let the dust settle a bit with Win 10, but now I'm fairly happy with Win 10 having done quite a lot of tweaking to get it the way I like. I've just done the same update and tweaking to the wife's PC and she's quite comfortable with it. If Microsoft do silly things to Win 10 in future, I've got Win 7 images for both PCs should I decide to retrench.