*Deleting Role Witnesses

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brianlummis
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Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby brianlummis » 24 Apr 2016 22:07

When importing my data from TMG some months ago, it brought across the all the roles which included "Bride" and "Groom" for each marriage. These roles are superfluous in FH, particularly as they have an undesirable effect in some Reports. Is there a way to delete these roles en bloc? I know that I can locate where they have been used by using the Witnessed Events Query but it is rather laborious deleting each instance one at a time!

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LornaCraig
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby LornaCraig » 24 Apr 2016 22:33

Use Tools > Fact Types and select the Marriage fact. Then click Edit to open the Fact Definition dialog. Click the Roles button next to Witness Roles. Select the role you wish to remove and click Delete.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 24 Apr 2016 23:37

I think Brian is asking how to remove those Fact Witness links from the Marriage Events, and deleting the Role definitions from the Marriage Fact Type definition will not do that (it just reverts the narrative sentence to a default).

I cannot immediately think of a way to delete all those Witnesses in bulk other than by writing a Plugin.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby brianlummis » 25 Apr 2016 07:09

Thanks Lorna and Mike. Mike has summed up my problem and, as I feared, it is another case where only a plugin will come to the rescue!

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 25 Apr 2016 09:39

Give me an hour and you will have a Plugin.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 25 Apr 2016 10:30

Try ATTACHMENTS Delete Witnesses for Role Plugin Version 1.0 Date 25 Apr 2016.

Take the usual precautions:
Use File > Backup/Restore > Small Backup beforehand.
If necessary use Edit > Undo Plugin Changes afterwards.
Attachments
Delete Witnesses for Role.fh_lua
Version 1.0 Date 25 Apr 2016
(1.85 KiB) Downloaded 50 times
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history.

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby brianlummis » 25 Apr 2016 10:56

Many thanks Mike for coming to my rescue again. All worked as expected and I hope that my request was not too much of a challenge. Maybe the Plugin will be of use to others who find themselves in the same situation as me. It was not until I started to look at one of the reports that I noticed that the details of a marriage were followed by a statement that the individual was the bride/groom which was stating the "bleeding obvious"!

Brian

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 25 Apr 2016 11:34

I suspected that those were the symptoms you were getting.

Glad to have helped with the Plugin, the more I do of these little 'fix-it' tasks, the easier it gets as I have a growing library of similar Plugins.

The Witnessed Events query almost offers the opportunity to delete the Witness links.
I started customising it, but could not enter the desired Data Reference.
Normally, when a link itself is needed rather than the record it links to, then it is simply a matter of dropping the trailing chevron (>).
e.g.
%INDI.BIRT.PLAC>% refers to Place record but %INDI.BIRT.PLAC% refers to Place field.
%INDI.BIRT.SOUR>% refers to Source record but %INDI.BIRT.SOUR% refers to Source link.
%INDI.~SHAR>% refers to Witness record so %INDI.~SHAR% should refer to Witness link that needs to be deleted.
BUT the Query would not allow that on the Columns tab.
After writing Plugin, I experimented some more, and found it accepted %INDI.~SHAR.% with the trailing dot (.) but then discarded the dot to give exactly what I wanted.

Then adding such Columns to the Witnessed Events custom Query gave what was needed.
Run the Query, sort by Role column and delete a bunch of Witness Links.
It has to be repeated for any Individual that is a Witness to more facts, but still fairly painless.

The exercise has revealed two bugs that I shall report to Calico Pie:
1) That the dot is needed as a workaround to get the Data Ref inserted.
2) Some typos in the Help page for Data Refs for Witnessed Event shortcuts.

The custom Query is ATTACHMENT Witnessed Events Deletion.
Attachments
Witnessed Events Deletion.fhq
(6.87 KiB) Downloaded 45 times
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby brianlummis » 25 Apr 2016 12:01

It looks as though I have exercised the grey matter this morning! I could find very few references to manipulating witness data, hence my call for help. I am still trying to get more proficient with the use of Queries but I can follow the logic of what you were trying to achieve. Apart from assisting me, I am glad that it has also revealed a couple of bugs which may help others in the future.

Thanks again.

Brian

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 25 Apr 2016 12:52

Yes, hopefully Calico Pie will fix the bugs ASAP, especially as the workaround in the Query is a bit tenuous.
On closing and opening the custom Query it complains about those Witness Link data refs.
You have to go through and Update them with the trailing dot (.) trick to get them working again temporarily.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby Senelstune » 07 Nov 2018 12:51

Mike and Brian,

I feel like a novice here. I see Brian raised this issue a few year ago and Mike, you created the solution which I read worked well for Brian. Excellent.

I too am a TMG refugee but enjoying FH immensely. I have only just noticed that in some reports I am getting this (example) for say Thomas Pierce - "He married Catherine Pugh in 1840" - and for Catherine Pugh I see - "She was a Bride at Marriage of Thomas Pierce and Catherine Pugh in 1840". I can see the funny side of this !

When I look at the Focus screen for Catherine Pugh the Marriage sentence reads correctly as "She married Thomas Pierce in 1840". This is what I expected to see in the reports, but did not.

If I follow the solution in this thread on "Deleting Role Witnesses", will I then see the expected sentence "She married Thomas Pierce in 1840" in my reports ?

Sorry, I am not as au fait with messing around with plugins and code ... I understand the problem that the Roles facility in TMG does not translate so well into FH - I am just a bit nervous fiddling around with Fact types.

What's the best way to deal with this issue with the latest version of FH - as this thread was 2 years ago ? Any advice much appreciated. Of course I am happy to try the the plugin and always willing to take Mike's advice - but just checking that this is still a good way around the problem.

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 07 Nov 2018 15:41

Unfortunately, the response from Calico Pie was Thank you for the feedback, we have made a note of it. and it has not been fixed.
I asked for an update today and they say "It is logged on the list for the developers, I am not able to provide any timescales for changes sorry."

That applies to the Query, but there is the earlier Delete Witnesses for Role Plugin attachment that works fine.

At first sight it looks as if Catherine Pugh has been added as a Witness to her own Marriage with the Role of Bride.
BUT when I tried that, FH warns Not applicable for principals (see Help) and the expected She married Thomas Pierce in 1840 style of sentence was produced. So the Witness Role of Bride was allowed but sensibly ignored.

Your description is rather different, and different from Brian's, so needs some investigation.

In the Facts tab for Catherine Pugh, right-click on the Marriage fact and choose Witnesses.
What exactly is listed?

Is there any other Fact with the same Date?

In Tools > Fact Types select Marriage, click Edit, and click Roles button.
Is Bride listed?
If so, select Bride and click Edit, and tell us exactly what is listed.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby LornaCraig » 07 Nov 2018 19:22

tatewise wrote:Your description is rather different, so needs some investigation.

Although it is not possible within FH to add the role of bride as a witness at the bride's own wedding, it appears from what brianlummis (the OP) said that the witness role does get imported from TMG, and it causes problems in some reports. I think John Snelson's problem is the same.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 07 Nov 2018 21:07

That is not exactly what I meant.
FH does allow the Witness to be added with the Role of Bride (try it and you will see).
But FH gives the note I mentioned and does not use it to produce a Narrative Sentence.
That should be the same as an import from TMG but there must be some subtle difference that would be nice to understand.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby LornaCraig » 07 Nov 2018 21:37

Yes, it would be nice to understand exactly what got imported from TMG, so perhaps John could answer the questions in your post earlier today before he deletes the unwanted witness roles.

But in answer to his question,
What's the best way to deal with this issue with the latest version of FH - as this thread was 2 years ago ?
I think the plugin you provided for Brian will do the job.
Lorna

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby brianlummis » 07 Nov 2018 21:45

@Senelstune

Have you tried the Delete Witnesses for Role Plugin provided earlier in this thread? It worked for me so unless you had a different setup in TMG it should work for you. Please make a backup before running the Plugin just in case there are some unexpected results.

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby Senelstune » 08 Nov 2018 11:33

All,

Facts Tab for Catherine Pugh, Witnesses shows
Thomas Pierce (Principal) Groom
Catherine Pugh (Principal) Bride

There are no other Facts for either of them with the same Date.

In Tools/Fact Types/Marriage/Edit/Roles ... Bride is NOT listed and Groom is NOT listed.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby Senelstune » 08 Nov 2018 11:42

Brian,

Thanks for your input.

I am just waiting now for Mike to consider the answers to his three questions so as to better understand what is actually happening here - and then I will take his advice and probably try the plugin he has written for you a few years ago.

I will come back and advise how it all goes soon - I am amazed that I had not noticed this fragment anomaly earlier. It is only that I am using the FH Publish Book feature and so having cause to actually read the details in the Report Narratives - that has revealed this problem. I thought I was going nuts as when you look at the Sentence in the Workspace Window that I noticed that it wasn't the same as the words appearing in the Reports.

More soon as we unravel the cause and effect.

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 08 Nov 2018 13:31

John, what you have described is exactly as expected.
FH faithfully imports the Bride & Groom Fact Witnesses on any Marriage Events.
The Tools > Fact Types definitions for the Marriage Event are not altered in any way.
(The same goes for other Roles and Facts, and will probably need Sentences defined similar to solution 2. below.)

The sentence wording described by you and Brian can only apply to Narrative Reports.
I have tried Individual Narrative, Descendants By Generation & Ancestors By Generation reports.

Only in Ancestors By Generation reports can I find the sentence wording described, and only for the Bride.
If the married couple are Ancestors of the report's root person, then for the husband it correctly says he married the wife.
But in the paragraph below for the wife, it says she "was a Bride at Marriage of" husband.
I could not get it to say that the husband "was a Groom at Marriage" of wife, but it might be possible somehow.

If the wife had another Role such as Bridesmaid or Witness in a different Marriage then the sentence would be fine.
So the sentence cannot really be classed as bug.

If you can find similar Bride or Groom sentences in any other Reports please let me know.

There are two solutions:
  1. Use the Delete Witnesses for Role Plugin and choose Bride, then repeat for Groom
  2. If you want to retain the Bride & Groom Fact Witnesses but remove sentence then proceed as follows:
    Use Tools > Fact Types, select Marriage and click Edit and Roles and Add.
    Set Role Name & Past Tense to Bride, set Witness Sentence Template to {blank}, and click Create.
    Repeat that for Groom.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby Senelstune » 08 Nov 2018 21:40

Thanks Mike,

I ran the plugin Version 1.0 April 2016.

It has removed the Marriage sentence re "Bride".

There is now no marriage sentence at all for the Bride in the Ancestors by Generation Report - although the marriage sentence is retained correctly for the Groom. This may be the intention as they appear one after the other in that Report - and so I understand if it has been thought unnecessary to repeat the marriage fact.

Is that what you expected as the outcome ?

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 08 Nov 2018 22:21

Yes sorry, I should have said.
In Ancestors By Generation reports, once the marriage sentence appears for one spouse, then for the other spouse it just says they "had the following children:".

If the wife, or one of her ancestors, is the focus of an Individual Narrative or Descendants By Generation report, then her marriage sentence does appear, and for the husband it says they "had the following children:".

I have not found a scenario where a report says the husband "was a Groom at Marriage" of wife.
(It might arise with a same sex male civil partnership in an Ancestors By Generation report.)
Nevertheless, to be consistent, I advise that you also use the Plugin to remove those redundant Groom Witness Roles
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby Senelstune » 09 Nov 2018 05:31

Yes, all as you say and predicted Mike.

So all good now at this end. Thanks to you - and Lorna - and Brian for your patience and advice.

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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 10 Nov 2018 12:40

I wondered why the Fact Witness problem discussed here only arose in Ancestors By Generation narrative reports.
So, I added a variety of other types of Fact Witness on various Facts.

They ALL appeared for both Spouses in Ancestors By Generation and Individual Narrative reports (with the known exception where a Principal Fact Sentence overrides any Witness Fact Sentence for the same Fact).

However, in Descendants By Generation narrative reports, the Spouse of a Descendant omits all Witness Fact Sentences.

I am not sure whether that discrepancy is by design or by mistake. What do others think?

Note that in such reports, the Principal Fact Sentences for Family Facts such as Marriage & Divorce only appear for a direct Ancestor/Descendant and not repeated for their Spouse.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby LornaCraig » 10 Nov 2018 14:34

I am not sure whether that discrepancy is by design or by mistake. What do others think?

For consistency I think the Spouse witness roles should either be included in all narrative reports or in none, so it's probably a mistake.

However, it's a lose-lose situation. There is a good chance that some of their witness roles will concern events in the lives of their own relatives, which would be irrelevant or meaningless in the context of a report which is not about that family. On the other hand they might well have been an informant for the birth their own children, for example, which would definitely be relevant.

So if the spouse's witness roles are included there is a chance some of them will be irrelevant, but if they are excluded there is a chance of omitting something relevant.
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Re: Deleting Role Witnesses

Postby tatewise » 10 Nov 2018 17:28

It is actually even more confusing than that due to the exception where a Principal Fact Sentence overrides any Witness Fact Sentence for the same Fact.

The Birth of a Child fact Sentence can be included against the Child who is the Principal.
So any Witness Fact Sentence such as the Mother being an Informant of that Birth will be omitted.

However, I have revisited that scenario and discovered the rule only appears to apply to Timeline Facts.
Although, I have not yet exhaustively tested out that theory.

For example, an Occupation fact can appear against the Child, and a Fact Witness of that Occupation can appear against an ancestor or descendant.
Whereas, the Birth fact can appear against the Child, but a Fact Witness of that Birth never appears.

But then the problem Birth/Groom problem that started this thread, seems to go against those rules.
It may be necessary to ask Calico Pie what the rules are for including Witness Fact Sentences.
If I find time I'll try a comprehensive trial of Witnesses on a wide variety of Facts.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history.


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