After importing directly from TMG, why does my FH project have undefined Fact Definitions for several Tag Types that were in TMG?
john
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John Snelson FCMA
Waverton, Sydney Australia
+61 (0)4 1601 4978
* TMG UK Census Fact Definition
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Hi John.
It is simply that FH does not know what that definition should be.
Are those tags predefined in TMG or did you add them?
However, it is a simple matter to add a definition to FH via Tools > Fact Types.
Just tick the Show Hidden option to reveal the undefined tags before editing.
It is simply that FH does not know what that definition should be.
Are those tags predefined in TMG or did you add them?
However, it is a simple matter to add a definition to FH via Tools > Fact Types.
Just tick the Show Hidden option to reveal the undefined tags before editing.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Senelstune
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Mike,
I am refering to the UK Census Tags in the UK version of TMG. As you know, there are 8 tags Census 1841-1911 shipped with TMG (UK) ... I want to preserve the label e.g. "Census 1881" when I export the Gedcom from FH via your GST plugin.
I am not sure whether to leave the tag in TMG as CENS or change it in TMG to EVEN.
Any help much appreciated - and yes, I am aware of the option to give witnesses their own facts.
john
I am refering to the UK Census Tags in the UK version of TMG. As you know, there are 8 tags Census 1841-1911 shipped with TMG (UK) ... I want to preserve the label e.g. "Census 1881" when I export the Gedcom from FH via your GST plugin.
I am not sure whether to leave the tag in TMG as CENS or change it in TMG to EVEN.
Any help much appreciated - and yes, I am aware of the option to give witnesses their own facts.
john
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
OK John, now I understand exactly you scenario, and you need to consider several things.
See how_to:import_from_tmg|> Import from The Master Genealogist (TMG) and under Correcting Problems those TMG UK Census tags are mentioned.
See how_to:recording_census_records|> Recording Census Records for advice on recording Census Events.
The problem with those 8 TMG Census 1841-1911 tags is they are not standard GEDCOM Census Events.
Therefore all the standard FH tools for managing Census records will not work with them as explained above.
(The same would be true with almost any other genealogy product.)
To continue with that style of TMG tags would require further custom facts for Census 1939 UK Register, and Census 1921 when it is released in a few years, and similar Census years for USA and other countries.
I appreciate that using a single Census Event means the Census facts are not explicitly labelled with the year, but the Date provides that detail.
So you have a decision to make. Stick with the TMG Census Year style custom facts, or switch to the standard GEDCOM Census Events.
I know GedSite has extensive customising for fact narrative sentences, so it might be possible to get them to use Census Year as a label where that Year is derived from the Date.
See how_to:import_from_tmg|> Import from The Master Genealogist (TMG) and under Correcting Problems those TMG UK Census tags are mentioned.
See how_to:recording_census_records|> Recording Census Records for advice on recording Census Events.
The problem with those 8 TMG Census 1841-1911 tags is they are not standard GEDCOM Census Events.
Therefore all the standard FH tools for managing Census records will not work with them as explained above.
(The same would be true with almost any other genealogy product.)
To continue with that style of TMG tags would require further custom facts for Census 1939 UK Register, and Census 1921 when it is released in a few years, and similar Census years for USA and other countries.
I appreciate that using a single Census Event means the Census facts are not explicitly labelled with the year, but the Date provides that detail.
So you have a decision to make. Stick with the TMG Census Year style custom facts, or switch to the standard GEDCOM Census Events.
I know GedSite has extensive customising for fact narrative sentences, so it might be possible to get them to use Census Year as a label where that Year is derived from the Date.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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E Wilcock
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
As a UK user of TMG, I obediently adopted the dated UK census tags, but I dont think I re-entered the censuses already in my data base.
The Gedsite connection is important. There is an option in Second Site to include only the primary occurrence of any tag/event. This avoids publishing multiple alternative birth dates etc. And allows one to omit intricate details about someone's career etc. Dated UK census tags allowed one to include multiple instances of census, and only of Census.
In fh there is no way of marking a starred occurence of an event, so I dont see any way of singling out just one Birth event, say. It would be possible tho to create a custom Tag or Event in fh summarising Occupation and for use only on a website.
But tho Caroline who adapted TMG for the UK had good intentions in producing the dated census tags, the majority of TMG users will have been dealing with USA censuses and using SecondSite/Gedsite regardless. For me it is not a problem. I already use the standard undated Census tag for American and German censuses and for the 1939 Register.
It is far harder for people who began to use the UK version of TMG after the dated Tags were introduced. When we learn a new program we quickly get used to its particular way of doing things. But for many of us the dated census tags were not the norm. I always completed the year/date field for each of them. If you are going to move them, make sure you have them dated first.
The Gedsite connection is important. There is an option in Second Site to include only the primary occurrence of any tag/event. This avoids publishing multiple alternative birth dates etc. And allows one to omit intricate details about someone's career etc. Dated UK census tags allowed one to include multiple instances of census, and only of Census.
In fh there is no way of marking a starred occurence of an event, so I dont see any way of singling out just one Birth event, say. It would be possible tho to create a custom Tag or Event in fh summarising Occupation and for use only on a website.
But tho Caroline who adapted TMG for the UK had good intentions in producing the dated census tags, the majority of TMG users will have been dealing with USA censuses and using SecondSite/Gedsite regardless. For me it is not a problem. I already use the standard undated Census tag for American and German censuses and for the 1939 Register.
It is far harder for people who began to use the UK version of TMG after the dated Tags were introduced. When we learn a new program we quickly get used to its particular way of doing things. But for many of us the dated census tags were not the norm. I always completed the year/date field for each of them. If you are going to move them, make sure you have them dated first.
Genealogy site at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... /~wilcock/
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
In answer to John's original question, as long as the TMG census tags are all identified with the GEDCOM CENS code, they will all import into FH via the direct import method.
In TMG I have 20 Census tags, identified by year, for UK from 1841 to 1939, for US from 1840 to 1940 and the odd Canadian one as well. They all have the CENS identifier and all import correctly into FH - the 'identifier' in the FH facts list is 'Census (family)' and all witnesses come across fine. You have to re-build sentences of course, but that's true of all input from TMG.
In TMG I have 20 Census tags, identified by year, for UK from 1841 to 1939, for US from 1840 to 1940 and the odd Canadian one as well. They all have the CENS identifier and all import correctly into FH - the 'identifier' in the FH facts list is 'Census (family)' and all witnesses come across fine. You have to re-build sentences of course, but that's true of all input from TMG.
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Don, two points :-
1) If John decides to set all those UK Census year tags to CENS, they will import as standard Census facts so the sentence is already predefined in FH. They will only import as Census (family) if the tag is applied to a Family couple (2 Principal Persons). That is not recommended, as explained in how_to:recording_census_records|> Recording Census Records, and should be replaced by two Individual Census facts, which is automated with a Plugin.
2) However, John wants to retain the Census 1841-1911 style fact labels when exported to GedSite and that is not likely to be possible if he follows the advice of using standard Census tags.
1) If John decides to set all those UK Census year tags to CENS, they will import as standard Census facts so the sentence is already predefined in FH. They will only import as Census (family) if the tag is applied to a Family couple (2 Principal Persons). That is not recommended, as explained in how_to:recording_census_records|> Recording Census Records, and should be replaced by two Individual Census facts, which is automated with a Plugin.
2) However, John wants to retain the Census 1841-1911 style fact labels when exported to GedSite and that is not likely to be possible if he follows the advice of using standard Census tags.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
While your point 1 is, of course, true, the idea of splitting Census (family) entries down to individual single person entries is anathema to TMG users for 2 reasons.
With 2 individual entries (and of course there may actually be far more,depending on all the family members present) then if I wanted to change the source or citation I'd have to change it for every single person, instead of doing it just once.
Secondly, it makes it impossible to construct meaningful sentences that explain the makeup of the family household (at least I think it would be impossible, as I can't see how, and nobody has responded when I've posted this challenge in the past).
With 2 individual entries (and of course there may actually be far more,depending on all the family members present) then if I wanted to change the source or citation I'd have to change it for every single person, instead of doing it just once.
Secondly, it makes it impossible to construct meaningful sentences that explain the makeup of the family household (at least I think it would be impossible, as I can't see how, and nobody has responded when I've posted this challenge in the past).
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Don, you have hit the nail on the head with your comment "there may actually be far more, depending on all the family members present".
Census (family) only ever applies to the Family couple/spouses/partners and NOT their Parents, Children, or any other household members. So the most consistent approach is to have a separate Census Event for each Individual in that household. Another approach is to have one Census Event for the head of household, and Fact Witnesses for all the household members (but you cannot record the Age of each Witness). The pros and cons of the above options are clarified in how_to:recording_census_records|> Recording Census Records.
Considering any one Individual who appears in perhaps every Census from 1841 to 1911 the only totally consistent way to record those facts is in eight Census Events for that Individual. Otherwise, that person will have Census Events or be a Census Witness while a child, then have some Census (family) facts when married (although even then separate Census Events may be needed if living apart for work or military reasons), and have some more Census Events or be a Census Witness when their spouse has died or living with in laws.
Regarding changes to Source Citations shared by those Census Events, that is the big bonus of the Method 1 'splitters' approach. The multiple Citations have nothing to update and just refer to one Source record, so all the changes are applied to just that one Source record.
Regarding narrative sentences describing the household, I don't see how using Census (family) makes that any easier than the other options. The narrative Sentence Template cannot automate the selection of the household members from the Family associated with the Census (family) or Census fact. It does not know which Parents or Children of the Family couple are living in the household on the day of the Census. It is even quite difficult for it to work out if they are alive on that day.
"Impossible" is an overstatement because for any fact you can compose a specific local Sentence Template that says almost anything you like. See how_to:narrative_report_fact_sentence_templates|> Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates for full details of the options. However, I suspect you are looking for a more automated way to name the household members in the narrative for any individual. My first suggestion is to use the Method 1 'splitters' Source record and list the household members in labelled text in its Note box (as discussed in the KB article above under Custom Fact Fields).
i.e.
Household: John SMITH, wife Jane, his mother Betty, and children Anne & Peter
Then the Census fact Sentence Template could be:
{=GetLabelledText(%FACT.SOUR[1]>NOTE2[1]%,"Household:")} appeared in the census {date} {place} and {%CUR_PRIN.NAME%} was {age}
and for John Smith would say something like:
John SMITH, wife Jane, his mother Betty, and children Anne & Peter appeared in the census 31 March 1901 in Kirkwall, Orkney, Scotland and John SMITH was aged 39.
and for his wife Jane JONES would say:
John SMITH, wife Jane, his mother Betty, and children Anne & Peter appeared in the census 31 March 1901 in Kirkwall, Orkney, Scotland and Jane JONES was aged 36.
Other variations on this theme are possible.
Census (family) only ever applies to the Family couple/spouses/partners and NOT their Parents, Children, or any other household members. So the most consistent approach is to have a separate Census Event for each Individual in that household. Another approach is to have one Census Event for the head of household, and Fact Witnesses for all the household members (but you cannot record the Age of each Witness). The pros and cons of the above options are clarified in how_to:recording_census_records|> Recording Census Records.
Considering any one Individual who appears in perhaps every Census from 1841 to 1911 the only totally consistent way to record those facts is in eight Census Events for that Individual. Otherwise, that person will have Census Events or be a Census Witness while a child, then have some Census (family) facts when married (although even then separate Census Events may be needed if living apart for work or military reasons), and have some more Census Events or be a Census Witness when their spouse has died or living with in laws.
Regarding changes to Source Citations shared by those Census Events, that is the big bonus of the Method 1 'splitters' approach. The multiple Citations have nothing to update and just refer to one Source record, so all the changes are applied to just that one Source record.
Regarding narrative sentences describing the household, I don't see how using Census (family) makes that any easier than the other options. The narrative Sentence Template cannot automate the selection of the household members from the Family associated with the Census (family) or Census fact. It does not know which Parents or Children of the Family couple are living in the household on the day of the Census. It is even quite difficult for it to work out if they are alive on that day.
"Impossible" is an overstatement because for any fact you can compose a specific local Sentence Template that says almost anything you like. See how_to:narrative_report_fact_sentence_templates|> Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates for full details of the options. However, I suspect you are looking for a more automated way to name the household members in the narrative for any individual. My first suggestion is to use the Method 1 'splitters' Source record and list the household members in labelled text in its Note box (as discussed in the KB article above under Custom Fact Fields).
i.e.
Household: John SMITH, wife Jane, his mother Betty, and children Anne & Peter
Then the Census fact Sentence Template could be:
{=GetLabelledText(%FACT.SOUR[1]>NOTE2[1]%,"Household:")} appeared in the census {date} {place} and {%CUR_PRIN.NAME%} was {age}
and for John Smith would say something like:
John SMITH, wife Jane, his mother Betty, and children Anne & Peter appeared in the census 31 March 1901 in Kirkwall, Orkney, Scotland and John SMITH was aged 39.
and for his wife Jane JONES would say:
John SMITH, wife Jane, his mother Betty, and children Anne & Peter appeared in the census 31 March 1901 in Kirkwall, Orkney, Scotland and Jane JONES was aged 36.
Other variations on this theme are possible.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Really Mike? I don't think so. My TMG Census events directly import into FH with the roles of all my original members present and listed as witnesses. But I've never worked out how to create a set of sentences that mirror what I can do in TMG.Census (family) only ever applies to the Family couple/spouses/partners and NOT their Parents, Children, or any other household members.
And yes, I want an automated transfer and don't want to go through my 5000+ census entries creating special Notes in the way you describe.
Here's a simple TMG sentence output (the only 'manual' entry is the bit about his occupation, the rest is auto-generated)-
"He was listed in the 1871 census as Head of Family at 329 Bethnal Green Rd in Hackney, London with his wife Sarah; he was a Master Printer, employing ten men and eight boys. Their children Sarah, John and Arthur were listed as living with them."
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
In GEDCOM terminology the Census (family) event only applies to the Family couple in exactly the same way as the other Family events of Engagement, Marriage, and Divorce, etc.
It is only the addition of Witnesses that extends it to other household residents.
But as I tried to explain, and you have not discussed, that approach leads to a whole raft of issues and inconsistencies that render Ancestral Sources and Lookup Missing Census Facts Plugin and Individual Census Report all useless.
However, getting back to auto generated Sentence Templates it is very easy to get something like the following when using your Witnessed Census (family) approach:
Ian MUNRO and Charlotte JONES were listed in the Census in 1871 at 329 Bethnal Green Rd in Hackney, London when he was 60 and she was 56, and Sarah MUNRO, John MUNRO and Arthur MUNRO were listed as living with them.
The Template for that is:
{principal} were listed in the Census {date}< at {address}> {place} {their ages}<, and {other=resident} were listed as living with them>
It can get closer to your TMG sentence by replacing {principal} with a bit more complexity:
{%CUR_PRIN%} and {his/her} {=Relationship(%CUR_PRIN%,%CUR_PRIN2%,TEXT,1)} {%CUR_PRIN2.NAME:GIVEN%}
which will start the sentence as:
Ian MUNRO and his wife Charlotte were listed ...
It is only the addition of Witnesses that extends it to other household residents.
But as I tried to explain, and you have not discussed, that approach leads to a whole raft of issues and inconsistencies that render Ancestral Sources and Lookup Missing Census Facts Plugin and Individual Census Report all useless.
However, getting back to auto generated Sentence Templates it is very easy to get something like the following when using your Witnessed Census (family) approach:
Ian MUNRO and Charlotte JONES were listed in the Census in 1871 at 329 Bethnal Green Rd in Hackney, London when he was 60 and she was 56, and Sarah MUNRO, John MUNRO and Arthur MUNRO were listed as living with them.
The Template for that is:
{principal} were listed in the Census {date}< at {address}> {place} {their ages}<, and {other=resident} were listed as living with them>
It can get closer to your TMG sentence by replacing {principal} with a bit more complexity:
{%CUR_PRIN%} and {his/her} {=Relationship(%CUR_PRIN%,%CUR_PRIN2%,TEXT,1)} {%CUR_PRIN2.NAME:GIVEN%}
which will start the sentence as:
Ian MUNRO and his wife Charlotte were listed ...
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Well yes, the Census (family) definition creates a whole raft of issues, but I wasn't going to touch on that, as it would expose my contempt for the whole GEDCOM approach to census's (and other events) - breaking up census tags into types, as GEDCOM does, is just ridiculous and all part of the whole GEDCOM mantra that a 'family' has to consist of 2 parents, 1 male, 1 female, etc - which has no relationship to the real world.
But thank you for your sentence - now how about a little more complex one?
"He was listed in the 1911 census as Head of Family at 34 Carisbrooke Rd in Walthamstow, Essex, with his wife Mary ; he was an account-book binder. Their children Gladys, William, Florence and Percival were listed as living with them, as was Mary's mother Mary Ann LINDSEY and Henry's niece Nellie Augusta Martha SNOW."
Of course,the niece has to have her sentence too: -
"She was listed as the niece of Henry GOFF in the 1911 Census at 34 Carisbrooke Rd in Walthamstow, Essex, where she was a sewing machinist for a children's outfitter."
But thank you for your sentence - now how about a little more complex one?
"He was listed in the 1911 census as Head of Family at 34 Carisbrooke Rd in Walthamstow, Essex, with his wife Mary ; he was an account-book binder. Their children Gladys, William, Florence and Percival were listed as living with them, as was Mary's mother Mary Ann LINDSEY and Henry's niece Nellie Augusta Martha SNOW."
Of course,the niece has to have her sentence too: -
"She was listed as the niece of Henry GOFF in the 1911 Census at 34 Carisbrooke Rd in Walthamstow, Essex, where she was a sewing machinist for a children's outfitter."
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Senelstune
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Mike,
Thanks for your advice and help so far.
I have changed all the TMG tags to CENS and successfully imported to FH. I have then run the "Give Witnesses Their Own Facts" plugin and am prepared to live with Fact nomenclature reading "Census" and the year or date will explain which Census 1841-1911 is being cited.
Secondly, John Cardinal is working on a possible workaround anyway with GS.
Last problem I think is that whereas all the "Witnesses" have their own Facts, the Head of Household appears with two Facts the same except one I think is created from his/her Principal role being modified to Head of Household in TMG. So one Fact in FH contains a Note "Witness Role: Head of Household" and the other is silent.
So, how do I get rid of the one that is "silent" ?
Any advice Mike as always, appreciated.
Thanks,
john
Thanks for your advice and help so far.
I have changed all the TMG tags to CENS and successfully imported to FH. I have then run the "Give Witnesses Their Own Facts" plugin and am prepared to live with Fact nomenclature reading "Census" and the year or date will explain which Census 1841-1911 is being cited.
Secondly, John Cardinal is working on a possible workaround anyway with GS.
Last problem I think is that whereas all the "Witnesses" have their own Facts, the Head of Household appears with two Facts the same except one I think is created from his/her Principal role being modified to Head of Household in TMG. So one Fact in FH contains a Note "Witness Role: Head of Household" and the other is silent.
So, how do I get rid of the one that is "silent" ?
Any advice Mike as always, appreciated.
Thanks,
john
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
John, those "silent" Census Events can simply be deleted, but I guess the real question is how?
You could find each in turn in the Property Box on the Facts tab and click the X Delete Fact button.
Alternatively, create a Fact Query with Row filter to list Census Events where the Note field is null.
Then you can select all those Census Events in the Result Set and Delete them in one go.
I will look at the Plugin to see if it can modified to prevent those double entry Census Events for the Principal.
Don, if you have such a down on GEDCOM then maybe FH is not the best home for your Project
Having given you some clues, I would have hoped you would take on the challenge of more sophisticated Sentences.
Here are a few more tips.
I think it is impossible to include occupation details derived from an associated Occupation Attribute with the same Date as the Census Event but should be possible in included in the Census Event local Note.
Not sure about including the relationship of each Witness to the Principal unless you use different Witness Roles for each.
The Witness Sentence Template you should be able to compose yourself from what I gave you.
See how_to:narrative_report_fact_sentence_templates|> Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates for clues.
You could find each in turn in the Property Box on the Facts tab and click the X Delete Fact button.
Alternatively, create a Fact Query with Row filter to list Census Events where the Note field is null.
Then you can select all those Census Events in the Result Set and Delete them in one go.
I will look at the Plugin to see if it can modified to prevent those double entry Census Events for the Principal.
Don, if you have such a down on GEDCOM then maybe FH is not the best home for your Project
Having given you some clues, I would have hoped you would take on the challenge of more sophisticated Sentences.
Here are a few more tips.
I think it is impossible to include occupation details derived from an associated Occupation Attribute with the same Date as the Census Event but should be possible in included in the Census Event local Note.
Not sure about including the relationship of each Witness to the Principal unless you use different Witness Roles for each.
The Witness Sentence Template you should be able to compose yourself from what I gave you.
See how_to:narrative_report_fact_sentence_templates|> Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates for clues.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Senelstune
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Thank you again Mike. I might wait and see how you go with a modification to the Plugin. That would be dead neat.
john
john
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
I have refreshed my memory of what the Plugin offers and wonder if it needs changing at all.
If you do NOT tick the Census ~ Head of household option then the Head of household duplicate Census Events will NOT get created.
The only difference between them is the original retained Census Event has no Note saying Witness Role: Head of household.
Does that really matter since all Census Event participants are equitable members of the household and their relationships are defined in the Census Source Citation?
That is unlike other Fact Witnesses for say Birth or Death where the Roles are more varied, and certainly not equitable to the principal Role.
If you do NOT tick the Census ~ Head of household option then the Head of household duplicate Census Events will NOT get created.
The only difference between them is the original retained Census Event has no Note saying Witness Role: Head of household.
Does that really matter since all Census Event participants are equitable members of the household and their relationships are defined in the Census Source Citation?
That is unlike other Fact Witnesses for say Birth or Death where the Roles are more varied, and certainly not equitable to the principal Role.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
John,Senelstune wrote:Secondly, John Cardinal is working on a possible workaround anyway with GS.
To clarify, I am not working on a possible workaround. I mentioned to you that if you use columnar output for Census events in GedSite, you can construct a column that contains the label of the tag and the year from the tag's date. So, for a "Census" tag, you could make a column value of "Census 1881". The configuration for that is not complicated. I think you have already added the necessary Tag Set.
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Senelstune
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Apologies. You are of course correct - and it was not my intention to embarrass you with that statement. I was, as you say, trying to deal with the issue in GS - and with your advice re a Table, have been able to achieve a good result.
Thank you, and I will be more careful in future.
As you can see at this end I am talking with Mike re the issue of duplicated Facts in FH. This is W-I-P. I have not yet decided finally how to deal with this.
j
Thank you, and I will be more careful in future.
As you can see at this end I am talking with Mike re the issue of duplicated Facts in FH. This is W-I-P. I have not yet decided finally how to deal with this.
j
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tatewise
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
John Senelstone, did you see my Monday suggestion regarding the Plugin, to avoid the duplicate principal Census Events?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
John,Senelstune wrote:Apologies. You are of course correct - and it was not my intention to embarrass you with that statement.
No embarrassment suffered nor offense taken! I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page, and that you weren't waiting for me to deliver something.
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
For GedSite purposes, having a single census event shared by all members of a household will produce the best output. Of course, GedSite will also handle separate events for each person, but a single event yields links to every person mentioned by variables in the sentence template. That's especially useful when a household includes extended family members.
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PeterR
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
I never use Family Census events, i.e. GEDCOM tag CENS subordinate to tag FAM, for the following reasons.
Such a census event may be interpreted as applying to 0 or 1 HUSB Individual records, plus 0 or 1 WIFE Individual records, plus 0 or many CHIL Individual records, all linked to the FAM record. Members of the extended family are not linked to this FAM record, even though some of them may appear in one of more CENS events linked to the FAM record. Furthermore, any of the "nuclear" family members who are linked to the FAM record are very unlikely to appear in all of the CENS events for the FAM record.
I imagine that most users of FH (and of AS) use the CENS events linked to the INDIvidual records. The required grouping of the "household" members for a given census is provided by the single SOURce record cited by all the INDI.CENS events.
Such a census event may be interpreted as applying to 0 or 1 HUSB Individual records, plus 0 or 1 WIFE Individual records, plus 0 or many CHIL Individual records, all linked to the FAM record. Members of the extended family are not linked to this FAM record, even though some of them may appear in one of more CENS events linked to the FAM record. Furthermore, any of the "nuclear" family members who are linked to the FAM record are very unlikely to appear in all of the CENS events for the FAM record.
I imagine that most users of FH (and of AS) use the CENS events linked to the INDIvidual records. The required grouping of the "household" members for a given census is provided by the single SOURce record cited by all the INDI.CENS events.
Peter Richmond (researching Richmond, Bulman, Martin, Driscoll, Baxter, Hall, Dales, Tyrer)
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Peter,PeterR wrote:I never use Family Census events, i.e. GEDCOM tag CENS subordinate to tag FAM, for the following reasons.<snip>
I agree with the issues you enumerated with using a Family Census event. I was not advocating that, not sure if you thought I was. As I mentioned, entering a single census event shared by all members of a household will produce the best output in GedSite. However, that event can be an Individual Census event where the event is added to the HoH and the other people added as shares.
If a shared individual event is not ideal in FH for some reason, GedSite will certainly handle multiple individual events.
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Senelstune
Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Sorry everyone for lack of comms, been away at the beach, it's summer hols down 'ere in The Land of Oz.
Mike ... yes, I did see your message, thanks very much, and I understand it.
John C .... thanks John, I agree that a single event sits better with GS and with me .... and that is the way I shall proceed. My next upload later tonight will be without the impact of "Give Witnesses Their Own Facts". So the "double entry" will disappear.
Mike ... your words about everyone in the household being treated "equitably" may align with Gedcom standards and/or FH functionality, however I think it does not match the requirements of the Census Forms and the resposibilies of the enumerators which demand the recording of consanguinity (or otherwise) of each person relative to the Head of Household on one single piece of paper which is the record of the Census Event. In a household of four people, there is one event only, one "fact" if you like, one main, pivotal character being "The Head of Household" and three others, "Witnesses" if you like, who may or may not be relatives.
How best to chieve that is the challenge in the transition from TMG though FH to the GS presentation and publishing on the web.
I have not explored the Census (Family) side issue, and think that perhaps to be interesting to some but a blind alley for me.
Onward.
John Snelson
Sydney, Australia
Mike ... yes, I did see your message, thanks very much, and I understand it.
John C .... thanks John, I agree that a single event sits better with GS and with me .... and that is the way I shall proceed. My next upload later tonight will be without the impact of "Give Witnesses Their Own Facts". So the "double entry" will disappear.
Mike ... your words about everyone in the household being treated "equitably" may align with Gedcom standards and/or FH functionality, however I think it does not match the requirements of the Census Forms and the resposibilies of the enumerators which demand the recording of consanguinity (or otherwise) of each person relative to the Head of Household on one single piece of paper which is the record of the Census Event. In a household of four people, there is one event only, one "fact" if you like, one main, pivotal character being "The Head of Household" and three others, "Witnesses" if you like, who may or may not be relatives.
How best to chieve that is the challenge in the transition from TMG though FH to the GS presentation and publishing on the web.
I have not explored the Census (Family) side issue, and think that perhaps to be interesting to some but a blind alley for me.
Onward.
John Snelson
Sydney, Australia
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AdrianBruce
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Re: TMG UK Census Fact Definition
Except, of course, when the Head of Household doesn't appear! As I have seen happen...Senelstune wrote:... one main, pivotal character being "The Head of Household" and three others, "Witnesses" if you like, who may or may not be relatives ...
Adrian