* Brother and sister marriage?

[avgas]

I would have thought it would be illegal but I have two ancestors who were living (unmarried) with siblings at the same address in the 1841 census, George and Faith Anderson, father William Anderson. In 1842 they were married and on the marriage certificate their father(s) have the same name of William Anderson.

Anyone know what's going on? Was it legal to marry your own sister? I have Faith's baptismal records and her father is William Anderson so she isn't adopted.

[tatewise]

Unlike later Census records, I believe the 1841 Census does not record family relationships, so how can you be sure Jane and George were siblings?

Is it perhaps possible that George was adopted/fostered?

[avgas]

No, I have his baptismal records too, his mother and father have the same name as Faith's.

Incest only became illegal in the UK in 1908 upon Googling the subject, so maybe it wasn't common but did happen.

[TimTreeby]

Well if it did happen it would certainly of been an illegal marriage, especially if they married in Church. See http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html for list of forbidden marriages.

[avgas]

Stranger and stranger. I've been pondering this for years, have been through all of the possible permutations and can't work out what their relationship was at all (other than brother and sister) unless by some incredible coincidence they both have mothers and fathers with the same Christian and surnames, and they happened to live in the same house; which could have course have happened.

[margarita]

Is it possible that one of them was the child of an unmarried older sister but was being brought up as the child of his/her grandparents to avoid scandal?

I am still not sure of that would make the marriage legal as they would be niece and uncle or nephew and aunt.

[DavidNewton]

I have Faith's baptismal records and her father is William Anderson so she isn't adopted.

I think that the conclusion here is by no means certain.

I have four adopted children all of whom were baptized in the CoE and according to their baptismal records I am their father. Of course if you look them up in the GRO birth index you will not find them unless you know their birth names.

In my opinion the later marriage is circumstantial evidence that they were not brother and sister.

David

[avgas]

Thanks for that David, that certainly sheds more light on the subject. Aren't adopted siblings prevented from marrying though?

[DavidNewton]

As long as they are not related - other than by being adopted into the one family - they are allowed to marry.

Obviously I have looked into various matters regarding adoption and one interesting, and surprising, little titbit is that once both adoptive parents are dead the children are no longer regarded as related, at least as far as intestacy law is concerned. I see this as meaning that the adoptive relationship only exists between parent and child and does not extend to child to child; hence in the eyes of the law adoptive children in the same family do not become siblings because of the mere fact of adoption.

Since most of the intermarriage laws seem to be about ensuring the children of a union have diverse genes, preventing unrelated individuals from the same adopted family from marrying would be perverse.

David

[AdrianBruce]

And bear in mind that in this era the concept of adoption is not formal, so constructing laws (including legal barriers) against something that can't actually be defined since it doesn't exist formally... could be tricky.

I'd agree - an adoption (informal) is what we're looking at.

[tatewise]

I have searched FMP and FreeBMD and think I have found the people you mention, but there appear to be two Anderson families in Wilsden/Bingley both with parents William & Jane and child George:-

Family A
1841 Census HO107-1297-10-35-9 in Wilsden, Bradford: mum Jane (60), George (25), William (20), Faith (20)
William Anderson born 1779 in Bingley, Yorkshire, attestation 13 Mar 1800 age 21 discharge 79th Regt Of Foot Or Cameron Highlanders.
Probably parents William Anderson & Jane Crabtree married on 07 Nov 1802 in Bradford, Yorkshire
George Anderson born 08 Dec 1814 baptised 19 Feb 1815 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William & Jane Crabtree
William Anderson born 03 Oct 1816 baptised 22 Dec 1816 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William & Jane
Faith Anderson born 09 Mar 1819 baptised 16 May 1819 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William & Jane
William Anderson born 1777, buried 22 Jul 1835 age 58 in Wilsden, Yorkshire denomination Independant.

1851 Census HO107-2311-568-4 in Wilsden, Bradford: William (34) born in Wilsden & family

Family B
1841 Census HO107-1297-11-12-16 in Wilsden, Bradford: William (47) & Jane (50), George (24), Hannah (15)
1851 Census HO107-2311-570-8 in Wilsden, Bradford: William (57) & Jane (61), Hannah (24) & family
Probably parents William Anderson & Jane Hanson married 17 Apr 1815 in Bingley, Yorkshire
Son George Anderson born 04 Apr 1817 baptised 22 Jun 1817 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by Wm & Jane
Dau. Hannah Anderson born 16 Feb 1827 baptised 08 Apr 1827 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by William & Jane

George (Family B) & Faith (Family A) married Q4 1842 in Bradford, Yorkshire Vol 23 Page 195
1851 Census HO107-2311-620-33 in Wilsden, Bradford: George (34) & Faith (32) and 3 children
So they were not siblings!!!

Bingley and Wilsden are about 1 mile apart on outskirts of Bradford

Check the birth/baptism dates of William and George above, and you will see that Jane (Family A) cannot be the birth mother for both of them, as the dates are only 6 months apart.

Note the Family A baptisms are all in Bingley and in Borthwick archive.
Whereas, Family B baptisms are all in Wilsden and Independant denomination.

[avgas]

Excellent work Mike, can't thank you enough. What was throwing me I think is that I have family A in the 1841 census with George as being 20, not 25 so I've been looking for someone born in the late 18 teens. I don't know if it's a print error but if George is 25 in family A then what you have suggested fits perfectly. Also I have both Faith and William in the same census as 20, whereas in your reading of it it looks like William is older. I always assumed that Faith and William were twins or born very close together ie 9 months. My print out is from 'Find My Past' nov 2009 so whether they have amended the error now I don't know.

I'm just back to this (literally since Thursday!) after a gap of some years and am still getting to grips with the massive advances in the research facilities available. I've signed up for the free trial of Find My Past searches and am very impressed with what it does.

I'd seen the Jane Crabtree baptism but dismissed it because of the date discrepancy. I now have to find out if one of the 'Jane's' is the one who was a widow and married William Anderson, a mariner, in Liverpool in 1800...because Jane in family A would fit the dates perfectly...

It never ends does it.

[tatewise]

George (Family A) is recorded as 20 in transcript, but is actually 25 in the 1841 Census image.
In 1841 Census you cannot rely on ages, because adults are (usually) rounded down to nearest 5.
i.e.
George is actually 26y 6m so recorded as 25
William is actually 24y 4m so recorded as 20
Faith is actually 22y 3m so recorded as 20

However, note that the 1841 Census for Family B does not round the ages!
It just depends on whether the enumerator stuck to the rules.

The moral of this investigation is do not jump to conclusions, especially when the facts have inconsistencies such as a sibling marriage. Broaden your search criteria to exhaust all possibilities, and double check transcripts against images.

[avgas]

Thanks Mike, each day is a learning day!

Just noticed also that as you say in '51 census they are 34 and 32. In the '61 they are 46 and 44 and in the '71 they are 55 and 53...and yet Silas their son (my GG Grandfather) stays constant with ten year increments.

[TimTreeby]

Also I think that the George Anderson in family A is already married to the Elizabeth Anderson, with the young Mary and William being their children. As I believe this is them in 1851. HO107 - Piece 2306 - Folio 324 - p 7 - Sch 28. Living at 56 Belgrave Street in Bradford.

George 37 - born Wilsden
Elizabeth 37 - born Embsay?
Mary 14 - born Wilsden
William 11 - born Wilsden
Sarah 9 - born Wilsden
James 6 - born Wilsen
Thomas 4 - born Wilsden

[tatewise]

Yes, there is still a lot to discover regarding these two family branches.
How are the two senior William Anderson's related?

I also had some question marks against Elizabeth, because could not find her baptism record.
Tim's lateral thinking shows how flexible you have to be.

In those days, people born before 1937 did not have a Birth Cetificate, and just relied on memory, so their age and place of birth recorded in each Census is notoriously unreliable. Whereas, Silas born in 1850 will have a Birth Certificate to remind him of his age, but Census ages may still get exaggerated.

[avgas]

Indeed. I have Silas's birth certificate, he was in fact born in Blackpool whereas all his siblings were born in Wilsden. Blackpool not being far from Liverpool I'm wondering whether there is some connection with the William Anderson, mariner and Jane Sampson, widower who were married in Liverpool in 1800, as Jane was 21 at the time which fits in with Faith's mother's age.

William is absent from all of the census's so I'm wondering whether he was away at sea, although his occupation on George and Faith's wedding certificate is comber which is to do with the weaving industry.

As a postscript since I had the theory about George and Faith being siblings I have always blamed any erratic behaviour on my part on the 'Anderson recessive gene.' An excuse I can no longer use!

[tatewise]

Dave, your thinking appears to be mistaken.
Faith's mother's name was Jane Crabtree not Sampson.
So I would have thought the following more likely (which I have added to Family A details):
Marriage of William Anderson & Jane Crabtree on 07 Nov 1802 in Bradford, Yorkshire.

The only Jane Crabtree I can find born in Yorkshire about 1780 is baptised 05 Mar 1774 in Hull, father William Crabtree.

Even if William Anderson was away at sea or in the forces he should appear on the Census, but if he was resident abroad he would not.

[tatewise]

Here are some other lines of research that I have amalgamted into earlier Family A details:

WO 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1915:
William Anderson born 1779 in Bingley, Yorkshire, attestation 13 Mar 1800 age 21 discharge 79th Regt Of Foot Or Cameron Highlanders.
So maybe he has a Scottish connection.

England & Wales Non-conformist burials:
William Anderson born 1777, buried 22 Jul 1835 age 58 in Wilsden, Yorkshire denomination Independant.
Which would explain why he is not in any Census.

I am trying to find some birth records for him, without success so far.

[avgas]

I was thinking of George's mother Jane with the Liverpool connection although thinking about it it's pretty tenuous.

[tatewise]

Sorry Dave, you have lost me now.
Family A
You specifically said "fits in with Faith's mother's age" and father "William is absent from all of the census's" and his occupation on her Marriage Certificate was Comber.
With details as posted earlier.
Family B
Now you are saying "George's mother Jane with the Liverpool connection" but his father William is NOT missing from the Census records and in 1841 Census has occupation Farmer & Carrier and in 1851 Census has occupation Farmer (7) Acres & General Carrier.
Their marriage probably is as follows (which I've added to earlier Family B):
William Anderson (Farmer) & Jane Hanson 17 Apr 1815 in Bingley, Yorkshire.

You seem to be in danger of mixing up Family A and Family B.
Where does the maiden name Jane Sampson come from?
How does George's mother Jane have a Liverpool connection?

[tatewise]

Summary of what has been discovered:

Family A
William Anderson born about 1777 near Bradford, Yorkshire (probable)
William Anderson baptised 31 Jul 1774 of Elwick Cragg, Bingley, father John (possible)
William Anderton (born 1779 in Bingley, Yorkshire) attestation 13 Mar 1800 age 21, discharged 24 Feb 1819, 79th Regiment of Foot or Cameron Highlanders. (improbable)
Parents William Anderson & Jane Crabtree married on 07 Nov 1802 in Bradford, Yorkshire (probable)
Martha Anderson b. 25 Feb 1803 Harden Beck, bap. 03 Apr 1803 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Farmer)
Betty Anderson b. 13 Aug 1804 Harden Beck, bap. 26 Aug 1804 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Husbandman i.e.farmer)
Sally Anderson b. 04 Feb 1806 Harden Beck, bap. 30 Mar 1806 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Farmer)
Hannah Anderson b. 13 Nov 1808 Harden Beck, bap. 25 Dec 1808 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by Wm & Jane)
Jane Anderson b. 20 Mar 1811 Harden Beck, bap. 30 Jun 1811 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Farmer)
George Anderson b. 08 Dec 1814 Harden Beck, bap. 19 Feb 1815 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Innkeeper) & Jane Crabtree
William Anderson b. 03 Oct 1816 Harden Beck, bap. 22 Dec 1816 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Farmer) & Jane
Faith Anderson b. 09 Mar 1819 Harden Beck, bap. 16 May 1819 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Farmer) & Jane
Rebecca Anderson b. 18 Feb 1821 Harden Beck, bap. 15 Jul 1821 in Bingley, Yorkshire by William (Farmer&Innkeeper) & Jane
William Anderson (Comber) buried 22 Jul 1835 aged 58 in Independent Chapel, Wilsden, Yorkshire.
George Anderson & Elizabeth Brown married 24 Dec 1835 in Shipley, Bradford, Yorkshire
William Anderson & Grace Spencer married Q2 1848 in Bradford, Yorkshire (probable)
1841 Census HO107-1297-10-35-9 in Wilsden, Bradford: mum Jane (60), George (25), William (20), Faith (20)
1851 Census HO107-2306-324-7 in Belgrave St, Bradford: son George (37), Elizabeth (37), Mary (14), Will (11), Sarah (9), James (6), Thomas (4)
1851 Census HO107-2311-568-4 in Wilsden, Bradford: son William (34), Grace (30), Emma (6), Ann (2)

Family B
Parents William Anderson (Farmer) & Jane Hanson married 17 Apr 1815 in Bingley, Yorkshire (probable)
George Anderson b. 04 Apr 1817 bap. 22 Jun 1817 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by Wm & Jane
Sarah Anderson b. 21 Jun 1819 bap. 01 Jul 1819 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by Wm & Jane
Nancy Anderson b. 01 Feb 1822 bap. 07 Apr 1822 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by William & Jane
Jane Anderson b. 11 May 1824 bap. 04 Jul 1824 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by William & Jane
Hannah Anderson b. 16 Feb 1827 bap. 08 Apr 1827 in Wilsden, Yorkshire by William & Jane
1841 Census HO107-1297-11-12-16 in Wilsden, Bradford: William (47) & Jane (50), George (24), Hannah (15)
1851 Census HO107-2311-570-8 in Wilsden, Bradford: William (57) & Jane (61), Hannah (24) & family
William's occupation is Farmer & Carrier in both Census

George (Family B) & Faith (Family A) married Q4 1842 in Bradford, Yorkshire Vol 23 Page 195
Both fathers William Anderson, and hers was a Comber.
1851 Census HO107-2311-620-33 in Wilsden, Bradford: George (34) & Faith (32) and 3 children

[TimTreeby]

Looking at actual Attestation papers, think is actually for a William Anderton, not Anderson as transcribed.

Mike Tate comment:
You may be correct Tim, as there is a Birth/Baptism record:
William Anderton born 23 Apr 1780, baptised 14 May 1780 in Elwick Cragg, Bingley, father Jonas.
There is another similar Birth/Baptism record:
William Anderson baptised 31 Jul 1774 in Elwick Cragg, Bingley, father John.
So how is surname Anderton & Anderson and father Jonas & John used at same place unless they are just synonyms?
(Eldwick Crag Farm, Bingley exists to this day.)

Furthermore, on detailed inspection of the image, he appears to have been in army service from 25 Dec 1797 to 24 Feb 1819 serving abroad in 1801, 1807, 1809, 1808/10/11/12/13 and 1815, so seems unlikely to be father of George (1814), William (1816), and Faith (1819).

[avgas]

Now you are saying "George's mother Jane with the Liverpool connection"

George of the Faith Anderson clan, not George who married Faith. There's a link to a marriage in Liverpool between Jane Sampson, widow age 21 and William Anderson, mariner in 1800, this would fit in with Faith's mother's age. If this is Faith's mother (Jane Sampson) then it might explain why Silas was born over that way. Perhaps she and Faith were staying with relatives? William didn't have to stay a mariner, he could have gone off to work in the mills or farms.

However as I said it's a long shot, but worth storing away just in case.

[avgas]

William Anderson & Jane Hanson 17 Apr 1815 in Bingley, Yorkshire.

Interesting, where did you get that from? You'll have to excuse my clodhopping, I'm still working out what is possible in terms of research on the internet after so long away. It was a day in the local archives and microfiches the last time I did anything like this!

Mike Tate comment:
I got that marriage from a FindMyPast search for Marriages :-
William Anderson, married 1815 +/-5yrs, born 1794 +/-2yrs, Britain Yorkshire, spouse Jane.
Marr year 1815 = Census year 1841 - age of eldest son 24yrs - gestation period 2yrs
Birth year 1794 = Census year 1841 - age of William 47yrs
The first entry listed is in Bingley, Yorkshire and the others are in Scarborough & Leeds.