* Auto-Install Plugin

[tatewise]

Would it be a good idea to take a leaf out of the Charting Companion book and auto-install the Ancestral Sources Data Entry Plugin when the AS program is installed?

Then it would be covered from both angles.
The Plugin already ensures the Program is installed.
This suggestion would make the Program ensure the Plugin is installed.

[EDITED to include Jane's excellent later suggestion.]
AS would copy from http://www.family-historian.co.uk/lnk/f ... php?id=147 to C:\ProgramData\Calico Pie\Family Historian\Plugins\Ancestral Sources Data Entry.fh_lua.

AS must check that ProgramData folder exists to ensure that FH V5 or later is installed in Windows Vista or later, but not overwrite any existing Plugin script.

[Valkrider]

Mike

That sounds like a good idea to me. As some new users don't understand that it is a separate programme it may remove some of that confusion and help them to enter their data consistently as the two will appear more integrated.

[Jane]

You could use

Code: Select all

http://www.family-historian.co.uk/lnk/fetchlatestpluginversion.php?id=147

Which would always bring down the latest version and with the correct name.

[ColeValleyGirl]

It should be optional. I (and I suspect many others) don't use the plugin at all -- it's an unnecessary complication as far as I'm concerned (although others will feel differently).

[LornaCraig]

As some new users don't understand that it is a separate programme it may remove some of that confusion and help them to enter their data consistently as the two will appear more integrated.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Colin. I think it would only add to the confusion, not remove it.

Like Helen, I don't use the plugin although I did download and try it some time ago. I prefer to work by entering batches of data and only open FH when a batch is complete.

Whilst installing the plugin automatically would do no great harm I think it may increase the confusion which already exists for many users. It might lead them to think that the plugin is necessary and that AS can only be run via the plugin from within FH. I realise the value of the plugin if you are dealing with just one new source at a time because it ensures that AS opens on the right project with the focus on the right person. But it can obscure the fact that AS is great for doing large batches of entries. There was a topic here where a user had not noticed the option to Close on 'Save Entry to File' which is ticked by default. This has caused frustration because the user had been re-loading the file into FH after each entry and re-launching AS each time.

This is not a criticism of the plugin itself, which I am sure many people find useful. But an automatic installation of the plugin with AS, or vice versa, will further obscure the fact that AS is a stand-alone program (and it might, incidentally, mean that Nick gets fewer donations!)

One final thought: would it be clearer if the plugin were named Launch Ancestral Sources Program?

[ColeValleyGirl]

What Lorna said!

I'll add that I try to minimise the plugins I have installed to those I actually use.

[tatewise]

There are a number of interesting points raised there.

Certainly, auto-installing the AS Plugin should be optional, so users who don't want it will not get it with every AS Program update.

Apart from that option, installing a Plugin is almost invisible, especially for new users, so if they are starting from an AS Program download and installation they would expect to run the AS Program directly rather than via the Plugin, until they discover it, perhaps in the AS Help or AS KB.

Conversely, if they start by downloading the AS Plugin, it now makes it much clearer that the AS Program also needs to be installed. Early versions of the AS Plugin did not do that. So I am not convinced that changing the AS Plugin name would be so beneficial.

I think the difference between new users and experienced users needs to be considered.
Quite often new users complain that after adding data via AS it does not appear in FH. The usual cause is they are not using the same Project for both programs, and using the AS Plugin avoids that problem. The more experienced users know how to run the two programs in tandem, and therefore find the AS Plugin superfluous.

As far as users not seeing options such as Close on 'Save Entry to File', that seems to be a regular occurrence, not just in Plugins but also in FH and AS and FHUG, so not sure what we can do about that. Interestingly, that option is NOT available in AS itself.

[BillH]

I don't use the plugin either. My method of using AS is to do batches at a time so I prefer to use AS stand alone. I would agree that changing the name to Launch Ancestral Sources or something similar would be a good idea. I think the current name does obscure the fact that AS is a separate program and can be used without the plugin. Just my two cents worth.

[tatewise]

Just to be clear, AS can be run in batches via the Plugin; simply untick Close on 'Save Entry to File'.

I am not keen on changing the Plugin name now because it is mentioned in so many places.

I really don't understand the argument about users not knowing AS is a separate Program when it has to be downloaded & installed using a Windows Installation dialogue completely separate from downloading & installing the Plugin from the Plugin Store. The very first sentence in the Plugin Help & Advice says: "This Plugin provides a convenient way of invoking the Ancestral Sources program..." and links to the AS Program KB entry.

[BillH]

Mike,

I wasn't very clear in what I do. I don't work from a person in FH. I have a group of census images in a folder for numerous people. I go through them one at a time and enter them in AS. I don't position myself on the person in FH before doing this. If I remember correctly that is a requirement when using the plugin.

I only meant that it seems people get a bit confused. At first folks seem to think it is sufficient to install the plugin. The help is very clear, but who looks at the help before trying to use something... very few people. It is of course up to you what it is named.

[tatewise]

It is NOT essential to select an Individual in order to run the Plugin. But if you do, then that person is preselected in AS, although you still don't have to use that selection.

As I said earlier, if a user just installs the Plugin, it makes it VERY clear in red that the Ancestral Sources application must be installed and provides a big Download Now button as shown in plugins:help:ancestral_sources_data_entry:options|> Ancestral Sources Data Entry ~ User Options.

[LornaCraig]

AS can be run in batches via the Plugin; simply untick Close on 'Save Entry to File'.

Agreed. Bill and I are just explaining why we don't use it - because in the 'batch' scenario the plugin doesn't provide any advantage over running AS direct, so we don't need the plugin. I imagine Helen's reasons are the same.

if a user just installs the Plugin, it makes it VERY clear in red that the Ancestral Sources application must be installed

Agreed again. But when a new user follows the instruction and downloads and installs AS they sometimes don't realise that they can run AS direct, without going via FH and the plugin to launch it. They know that the plugin can't work without AS but don't understand that AS can work without the plugin.

Perhaps this confusion doesn't matter much and if Nick decides to add the plugin installation when AS is installed I'm OK with that, as long as it is optional.

[BillH]

Lorna,

Well put. I agree with everything you said.

[tatewise]

This thread is going in various directions.
Apart from doing away with the Plugin altogether, has anyone any good ideas on how to better educate users that AS can be run independently?
I believe ancestralsources:index|> Ancestral Sources makes that pretty clear, and only introduces the Plugin as an optional afterthought.

[Valkrider]

Mike

Please do NOT do away with the plugin I find it very useful.

I do a surname study and with thousands of entries in FH I always check for a person in FH and if I find them invoke AS through the plugin and the correct John Doe and is already selected. I do not want to search through hundreds of John Doe's just looking for the right one in AS when I cannot see the rest of his record. Even if I do not have him I can still create him in AS.

We all work differently and I would find it very inconvenient if this plugin was discontinued. Maybe just let sleeping dogs lie as there are so many differing views.

[LornaCraig]

I fully understand, Colin, and I certainly never suggested doing away with the plugin because I recognise its value to many users like yourself. I'm assuming Mike had 'tongue in cheek' when he suggested it himself!

As for how to educate users that AS can be run independently, my only suggestion was to re-name the plugin but as Mike has pointed out that would be difficult because it is mentioned in so many places.

I don't think we need to dwell on this any more. The important point is that AS in invaluable to most of us and the plugin is invaluable to some of us. Any confusion new users have can be cleared up in this forum.

[ColeValleyGirl]

I imagine Helen's reasons are the same.

Yes, I work in much the same way.

I think one of the benefits of FH is that there are as many different ways of working with it as there are users. I may raise my eyebrows at some things I see discussed or recommended, but that doesn't mean they're wrong, just not the way I would do things. And there other ideas I will adopt as they fit nicely with my way of working.

The important things is to maintain that flexibility, by not imposing methods of working but just enabling them -- and educating newcomers that there isn't 'one true way' of doing things, but a lot of different styles, one of which may suit them.