* Citation Entry Date Issue when using Witnesses

[David Potter]

Hi Forum

Background - AS allows you to create a Birth Fact and Citation based on the actual Birth Date, and an option setting will place Residence and Occupation Dates at the Birth Registration Date. Nothing wrong here, just background.

So
1) I would like the Birth Fact and related Citation to carry the Birth Date in the Citation Entry Date field. This works okay.
2) I would like the Residence and Occupation Facts and related Citations to carry the Birth Registration Date in the Citation Entry Date field. This also works okay
3) I would like the Witness (Birth Informant) and related Citation to carry the Birth Registration Date in the Citation Entry Date field. This does not work! Despite the list of Citation where used Records confirming the Birth Registration Date is in fact assigned to the Witness record!

When I use the Witness Go to Local Event. The Witness Fact - Informed Birth of John Smith - The Fact Date and Citation Date is the Birth Date and not the Birth Registration Date? Can anyone please explain what might be wrong here?

Please see screen shots... Due to limitations I will add the last two images to another post

BR

David

[David Potter]

Last two Images for above Post.

Bottom screen shows Witness view of the Event - Why is the Fact Date and Citation Entry Date 10 OCT. When the Witness Citation record _SHAR clearly shows 21 NOV?

BR

David

[johnmorrisoniom]

My view is that the informant is informing the birth date, not the registration.

[tatewise]

The Citation on the Birth Event is coupled to the Event (BIRT).
The Citation on the Birth Witness is coupled to the Witness (BIRTH._SHAR).
Similarly the Citations associated with Residence and Occupation are coupled to each Attribute.
They can all have different Entry Dates and Assessments and you can edit them independently.

This is more an issue with how AS creates the Witness Citation so I have moved it to the Ancestral Sources forum.

There may also be an issue with the Where Used Record Links Plugin you used in evidence when reporting the Witness Citation Entry Date (I will have a look).

[tatewise]

I have investigated the Where Used Record Links Plugin and there is a mistake associated with Witness Source links.
It mistakenly shows the Citation details of the parent Fact (Birth in this case) instead of the Witness.

The problem is the clickable links in the Result Set for Data Ref Where Used and Field Where Used that do not lead to the Source as happens for all other cases, so I made Witnesses a special case, but did not spot that it upset the Citation details. It will be fixed in the next version of the Plugin.

[David Potter]

Hi All

I'm not sure I fully understand all the technical parts and do understand there is an issue with the Plug-In. But is what I'm trying to accomplish technically possible? How is it addressed, via AS or manual data tweaks?

Br

David

[tatewise]

For the time being ignore what the Plugin says, just look at the Citations themselves.

Looking at AS Tools > Options > Birth settings there are only two settings for Citation Entry Date.
On the left for Occupation and Residence facts you can Use registration date if given and that is OK.
At the top under Sources you can set Use Citation Entry Date and choose Event/Today's/Registration Date.
You have chosen Event Date which is being applied to both the Birth Event and the Witness Informant.

To achieve what you request needs a similar Use Citation Entry Date under Informant below, and in some cases within the Associated Individuals Types templates.

That is something Nick Walker may consider adding to a future version of AS.

In the meantime you will have to edit the Witness Citation Entry Date by hand.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike

I do apologise for the late reply and sincere thanks for looking into this. I'll make a few manual tests firstly and then if all works out okay - I make a request to Nick to see what he thinks and if this could be coded as an additional option in AS.

I'll be back soon with my test results of handling this manually.

BR

David

[David Potter]

Hi Mike

After Testing I'm thinking I'm asking for more than FH can handle here. And it is not due to AS logic. Simply put I want the Witness who informed of the Birth; but on a date later than the birth itself to be separated in someway from the Birth event date. If I manually change the _SHAR value it also changes the Birth Fact date so they are indeed tightly intertwined and vice versa.

My objective was that the Birth Date is the Birth date. But the Witness informed of the Birth sometime later at the Registration Date. So the statement in the Witness Fact List 'Informed the Birth of John Smith' with the Birth date assigned to that Fact is not true. It was actually sometime after.

It's a minor thing I know but I do have my OCD moments. Let me have your comments if I may anyway and then we can close as I don't think I can get what I'm looking for without a program change to FH which they ain't gonna do just for me.


Many thanks

Br

David

[David Potter]

Actually - I forgot to say it's the same with the Death Fact and Witness event. You see the same issue - where the Individual Dies on a Date and the Witness (Informant) informs of the Death on the Registration Date but you still see the 'Informed the Death of John Smith' associated with the Death Date and not the Registration Date.

BR

David

[tatewise]

Yes, that point has been discussed before regarding Birth Event and Birth Registration that usually arise on different dates, and similarly for Death.

Your complication is coming about because you have merged those two distinct events, which is the effect of using Witnesses.

The alternative is to have a separate custom Birth Registration Event and AS allows that via its Associated Individuals feature accessed in the Birth > Further Info tab, where the Edit... link opens the template editor.
See ancestralsources:tutorial:templates:associated_individual_types|> Ancestral Sources Tutorial ~ Working With Templates ~ (4) Associated Persons.

[David Potter]

I see - thank you Mike.

I'll take a closer look at that document.

David

[David Potter]

Umm, I see it now. That would certainly have been closer to my needs. I assumed these templates were like 'fixed' defaults to be applied repetitively when keying in lots of like data. I didn't know they could be used to tweak the behaviour of how things can be done. I've think I gone too far to change things now. Without having to undo/redo a lot of Birth and Death entries. I'll have a deeper read through and make a decision.

Thanks again Mike

David

[tatewise]

Is your concern about the Witnesses Event Date primarily with the Narrative Sentence?
If so, then that can be rectified using the Data Ref {%CUR~WITN.SOUR[1].DATA.DATE%} instead of {date} just in the Witness Role template.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike

No not the Narrative Sentence, just in that the Date placed against the witness Fact being the Birth date is not entirely correct and should be the Registration Date in my mind. Or at least a choice.

I read somewhere there is a plug in to 'Give Witnesses their own Facts', I'll look into this and maybe that offers a solution to separate the Witness from Birth Fact entirely and see what it does. This coupled with the Association in AS might be the solution. But I need to understand the total effort to make this adjustment on already significant numbers of Birth and Death records.

BR

David